Why Great Riders Still Need Coaches And How To Become A Coachable Student

This is our longest episode ever. Three hours of real talk on coaching, rider development, and getting faster on track.

Misti Hurst is a former AMA Pro Supersport racer and senior coach at California Superbike School. She has over 20 years of experience racing and coaching riders around the world. Now she has written a book about it.

In this episode, Misti talks about her path from street rider to pro racer to coach, her years working with Keith Code at CSS, the psychology of fear and breakthroughs in riding, and how she coaches everyone from kids to mountain bikers to Moto Moms.

We also talk about her debut book, Life in the Fast Lane: Discovering the Art of Cornering, and what it took to write it. The e-book and print editions are available at mistihurst.com.

Misti was back on the show for Season 2 Episode 14 with Rick Rayner for a three-hour deep dive on coaching and trail braking.

You don't need to listen to all three hours in one sitting. Break it up over a few sessions. Come back to the parts that hit home. There's enough in here to keep you thinking for a while.

📚 Misty's Book Update: Misty has a new book on the way. The e-book is expected at the end of March, with print copies coming at the end of June. Preorder now and purchase at mistihurst.com.

🔗 https://mistihurst.com

Topics: motorcycle coaching, rider development, throttle control, racing lines, trail braking, rear brake technique, mental strategies, track riding, self-awareness, observation skills

Transcript

Copy

Speaker 2 (00:00.246)
So normally I would preface a bunch of stuff with someone but with you I think we should just hit it raw man. Let's just roll. Let's just roll. So hey, it's good to see you. I'm gonna let Angus introduce us and all that stuff. Well, how have you been? It's good to see you man. I haven't talked to you in a while. yeah, that's right. I had my mind. I might have been thinking coaching like a long time ago.

Let's see, summer.

Speaker 1 (00:28.409)
I saw you at the ridge.

No, but when you coached me or when we were together on the track quite a while ago. yeah, just last summer. Cool. And you're. Yeah, you're you know what is he showed up. He showed up something like the last day.

Last two days, he left. Two days.

I was having issues, so I really wasn't on the track the last two days much. Like 20 maybe, I don't know, doesn't matter. Anyway, I didn't see you guys very much because I was having back issues, really bad back issues. So I was hanging under the tent most of the time. anyway, so I'm so excited because I want to talk to you a little bit about your book, but I think I already did a lot of that. So I want to kind of blend it in with

just writing and some other questions and kind of see what we end up talking about. I like talking about writing and as Keith Code would call it, the science of writing, right? I love that. And that's kind of the way I've practiced my writing. So I want to dive into some of that stuff, but what do you, what do you, do you have any messages for us all? The group Kiwimoto people tell us.

Speaker 1 (01:43.22)
for having me, for listening to me talk for all of this, for listening to my story. yeah, I I appreciate you guys having these motorcycle conversations and supporting what I'm up to and supporting the book. And yeah, so thank you for that. And I just love talking motorcycle stuff as well. So.

Yeah, go. I should preface all this to maybe Angus just call that beginning stuff out. I appreciate your coaching and I also read your book and I really appreciate your book. And so I think we we should promote it. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a great book. And I know you've been editing like a madman. So maybe it's not exactly the same as what I read, but it's going to be pretty. Way better.

Third.

The gist of it's all the same. You have like three sections and 23 chapters is what I tackled. Is it still kind of the same?

It's grown a little bit. think there's 25 now. I've added some other stories. I've sort of condensed a few things and I'm just really happy with the way it all sort of flows. think it's a really good mix and, you know, change me if I'm wrong here, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's a really good mix of, you know, the technique and the technical skills of writing technique and fundamentals, but it's intersourced with

Speaker 1 (03:08.044)
you know, stories which make it a little bit easier, I think, to absorb and understand whole. Yeah, you know, I struggled to read honestly, motorcycle technique books, because sometimes it's, you know, dry or too physics based or too, just too hard to really grasp. then my I just lose focus. But, you know, I find being able to tell the stories of how I apply that to a difficult student or a student that

Totally correct. I agree.

Speaker 1 (03:36.806)
has this huge successful turnaround or some spectacular moment on the track. I think it really translates well, as well as expressing what I need to work on and what challenges crop up as coaches as well. It's interesting to see the other side of the coin as well and think, what does my coach go through on a daily basis dealing with me as a student? So I wanted to share some of those things.

Well, it's in there. And so let me ask you about one of those things. I asked James Toohey about this too. You talked about in I forget what chapter, but you talked about reaching a plateau. And give me an example. I'm sure you've had several, but just give me an example of one of your plateaus, what it was and maybe how you fixed it.

Sure, I mean, I have a great example and this is how we can also talk about Philip Island as well. I'm just riding Philip Island recently. And as coaches, we show up and oftentimes we're at tracks that we haven't ridden often or at all. you know, it's up to us to really learn and dial it in very, very quickly so we can be able to demonstrate correctly. But it doesn't mean, you know, we can always pick it up very, very well. And we have

you know, good solid fundamentals, but we need to be able to tweak and fix those. And so my lines weren't exactly where I wanted them to be. I was struggling in this fast section in the back and it was just really tricky for me to figure out exactly what I was doing wrong. And I was like, I can't hit the apex. And you know, I think it's especially difficult as a coach because we, we have so many things that we can pull from. Well, is it this, is it that, is it this? And we know

most likely what the cause is, but it doesn't necessarily mean we can sort it out or solve it on our own. And so luckily enough, I was able to have some of the coaches I followed and led and even had my my video reviewed. And it was super helpful because I mean, here you have some of the best, the best coaches in the

Speaker 2 (05:39.95)
Luckily enough is an understatement. Right? Right? mean, if you're there riding with coaches like yourself, I mean, that's huge, man. That's pretty cool. didn't you say that in your book that that similar thing happened at Laguna Seca? Am I remembering that wrong?

probably. Yeah. I mean, I had John groom also follow me at Laguna Seca and that was

Yeah. Yeah. Tell me, I'm just curious. This is where we get to deviate. And I spent a day or two with Tony Elias there. So I've got that track burned. Right. And so I'm just curious what I don't want to get into the super details. I'm just curious. Like, do you remember what corn?

Yeah, was corner, definitely corner four. And again, I was struggling to get the exact apex I wanted and not enough, not a good enough line and drive coming out. And it took, I could not figure it out. was like, you know, turning in different spots and waiting with the throttle and trying different things. And it took John Groom.

following me and he said, you know, hey, what happens if you turn too late? And I was like, wait a sec, I never turned too late. Like turn too early kind of person. No way, no how. And anyway, it turns out lo and behold, he was right. I was turning much too late. I was late apexing and then it was holding me on a tight line and I wasn't getting the drive I wanted. And we sort of traced it down to in terms of like the why.

Speaker 1 (07:11.392)
And just, had been racing a lot of mini bikes and you you tend to take a wider swoopier line to maximize, you you don't have a lot of horsepower there. And so I was sort of attempting that sort of wide swoopy line at Laguna and turn four on an S 1000 and you definitely don't need to do that. So it just took talking to him and solidifying, okay, if you initiated the turn in a little sooner.

And a little slower would that put you at an earlier apex, or an earlier one than what I was taking to then set you up on a better line through there. So perfect example of something that I sort of was playing around with the concept, but I couldn't quite nail it down because obviously I can't see my own riding. So we definitely hit plateaus. mean, we all need coaching at whatever level and it's gonna ebb and flow as well. Sometimes you can steadily improve and then other times you're...

on this platform. feels.

You get stalled or whatever. Yeah. So observation being observed, right? Being observed, but you want to be observed by a good observer. Right? So.

And a helpful observer, and I think this is the key point, is you can have observers who tell you the very obvious. Like when I was AMA racing, I was struggling at Barber and I was way too slow going into turn one. Right. And my husband was trying to be helpful by saying, well, you're rolling off the gas too soon. And I sort of looked at him and I was like, well, thank you Sherlock Holmes. Like, I know that I'm rolling off the gas too soon because when I roll off the gas, everybody else goes past me.

Speaker 1 (08:48.908)
and they go into turn one way faster. It's not helpful. But then I had someone else come and say, you know, how much of the track are you seeing as you approach turn one? Are you able to see, you know, the flag station to the outside edge of the track? And I literally looked at the guy and said, what flag station? So then riding down.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:10.55)
you know, the straightaway at Barber like this. Everything is coming at me like it's a million miles an hour faster. And so I rolled off the gas because I was terrified. Me changing my visual pattern and saying, if I pull my vision open wide, if I don't allow it to fixate, if I choose some different things that I can look at, was able, it helped me carry a lot more entry speed into that corner. So yes, observations and, you know, advice, but also it has to be helpful.

Yeah, right. want something you want a good observer, somebody that a trained coach to be observing you for sure. I think that's great. Two quickies out of that story. That was a great shout out to John Groom, who had a bad crash a couple of months ago. I was there when that happened and it was really it was really scary, really super scary. I heard he's doing better.

And so anyway, shout out to John. If you're listening to this, I'm glad you're doing all right, bud. And the other thing is I've only had one super bad crash in my writing career and it was at turn four at Laguna Seca about 18 years ago. That's hilarious. That's really funny. And it was, it was ugly, man. It was ugly. well that's that, that was really cool. I like that. Um, what, uh, you were talking about being observed by

I didn't,

Speaker 2 (10:32.75)
good coaches. What do you consider? Don't think this is political now. Straight up answer. What to you is a good coach? What's a good coach? Don't hold back.

I think a good coach is someone who can not only see the error, because there's definitely, you know, like for sure, even my husband's example, yes, you can see that I'm rolling off the gas too soon. Great. Step one is that you, you know, a good coach is someone that can see those errors. You're rolling off too soon, you're looking in too late, your lines are off, how's your body position, et cetera, et cetera. But even more than that, because it's not helpful to be told that.

well, your body position sucks. Thanks, Einstein. Like your throttle control sucks. Great. How do I fix it? Like, so that's one step. Great. Anyone can sort of tell you what you're doing wrong, but a good coach is then going to be able to explain in a way that makes you have to take some kind of control to figure out and get the solution. So instead of just saying, you're rolling off the gas too soon, we'll just hold it a little longer. Like, great.

Thank you, if I could, I would hold it a little longer, thank you. So they're able to break it down even further to diagnose what are you doing right now? How is that not contributing to your success in that corner? What is the next step to make you successful in that corner? And then how are you going to be able to do that? And not everyone can deliver all of those things well. So you can have...

you know, Rossi or Marquez or some of the top writers in the entire world, they probably know what you're doing, but whether they can communicate exactly or well enough to teach you how to make those improvements yourself, that's the distinction between, you know, someone who maybe has a regular observation and then someone who can encourage improvement through their explanations and questioning.

Speaker 2 (12:27.278)
That's so good. So a good coach has a toolbox of not only observing, but being able to break down and try to understand the full gamut of symptoms and have a toolbox of solutions to offer you. How about a good coach is a good listener? And that seems simple. seems really simple. But what if I just said, I think I see the flag.

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (12:55.214)
How about that? Like, what do you, you know?

Then a good coach would be able to figure out exactly, well, do you see the flag? Okay, well, where is the flag station exactly? How much attention is that taking off of you? What else are you seeing visually speaking? Is seeing the flag station the way you're seeing it helpful to your riding or not, right? So then they're going to be able to, you know, I love how you say listen. When we're doing level four,

and we're the level four consultants. I always say that it feels to me like I'm a detective. Like, you know, I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, like, I'm gonna listen for all the clues. And sometimes the clues don't necessarily come in words. It comes in how you react to something I ask or how you, know, oh, well, when I'm riding and I'm going into a right corner and then they lean a different way or something, it's putting those, you know, observation skills, what you see, what you hear, little clues.

and saying, how is this person's scenario different from someone else's? Because you and, you know, for example, you and Angus could be riding at the ridge, for example, and you can both be running wide in turn six, a long carousel, and you can both be like doing the exact same thing. The solution to each of your problems could be vastly different, right? So, you know, we could figure out, okay, well, Angus is doing something entirely different than you are.

You're using a reference point that's out in the trees, right? So that's where you're looking, so that's why you're running wide. But Angus, on the other hand, maybe he has a throttle control misunderstanding and he's just getting on the gas and whamming it on and trying to roll it on the entire way through that double apex corner. Ain't gonna work. So two riders doing essentially the same thing, completely different reasons for doing that and completely different solutions for solving that problem.

Speaker 2 (14:48.0)
Okay, so we're painting a pretty good picture of what a good coach is. That was a really good little bucket of information there. I mean, if anybody listens to that and you don't think that Misty and her brethren don't have a bucket of tools that's about 10 miles deep, I mean, because that's what it is. You're scratching the surface with what you just explained. I've witnessed, and I want to ask you about students in a second.

I've witnessed myself the gamut of students and what they say to you. there's a lot of people that are in denial about, and I'm not saying this in a bad way, I think it's kind of a human trait. There's a lot of people that think they're doing something, but they're not doing it, or they don't want to hear what you're telling them. And so you have a job on your hands of, it's not always easy to just observe

and dig into the toolbox and get the points across, right? mean, there's people are people. And so to me, a good coach needs to figure out how to break down each person, even when they're being an ass. I have a great question. We spent some time together. Don't let me forget about the student, but the student question. But we spent some time together in Las Vegas at that track. And I was working there. I wasn't riding with the school.

Welcome.

Speaker 2 (16:11.074)
but I was observing the riders and I don't know if you're gonna remember this, somehow, I basically, when I saw you at the end of the day, I think you guys were picking me up to go to the hotel and I'm like, who's the dude with Tourette's? You remember that?

I really, but I understand we have students that look like they have.

You're going remember, you're going to remember because it ended up being your student. It was your guy. And it was also a guy who did not want a female coach. Does that ring a bell?

There's a chapter in the book on

Yeah, I know I know and so but it's real it's really it's a real thing like this guy this guy You know, i'm not naming name. I don't even know his name So nobody I can i'm just gonna talk freely about it. But I mean he had a steering vision problem I mean you can maybe you can remember what the problem actually was but what I was seeing Is that he was just like multiple multiple steering inputs. It was really bad He got so much better by the end of the day. I'm like

Speaker 2 (17:09.676)
did you see that guy and you're like, yeah, that was my guy. And I'm like, my God. And then somebody else told me that he complained about like having a female coach. So how did that get handled?

Well, I don't remember that guy in particular. I mean, we have a lot of standout students and similar stories to that, let's just say. But there is a chapter in the book called, great, I got the girl student. I actually did debate whether or not to put that in there because, you know, I really focus, I don't like to focus too much on the male, female aspect of, you know, the industry, et cetera, because I've been well received for the most part.

I know, yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (17:50.656)
It's in there because it is a hundred percent an aspect of being a female in the motorcycle industry that I just can't deny that it does crop up. And in a lot of ways it crops up in a negative manner. Now, luckily for me, it's not very often. The story goes, and it's in the book and it is kind of a fun story, that, you know, when I was a new coach and the first time it happened to me,

with a student that I could tell instantly and I can usually tell very instantly with these students that they're highly unimpressed that they've gotten me as their coach and so you know how it is everyone lines up and you walk down and as coaches we look for our students on the bikes we never know who we're gonna get ahead of time typically man, woman, old, young, experienced, not, pro racer, new rider, no idea and so I'll be walking down and I usually like to make it fun kind of like Eenie Meanie Mine-a-moe like who am I gonna get?

And usually most people are so stoked. They're like, Hey, how's it going? Or they're nervous or they're freaked out or whatever. But every once in a while you'll just get that student. That's like, they'll see me coming towards them and they just sort of sit up like this. Like, I'll go, Oh, great. And I'll go, Oh, sure enough. That's my guy. And sometimes he looks like this fancy racer guy, or sometimes he just has this attitude. And then, and then it's just like, I get nothing. Yep. Yep. Okay. Uh huh. And then I'll ask the question like, Hey, have you ever been here before? Oh yeah. Yeah, totally.

Tons of times, oh, do you do track days? No, I race, I race. And I'm like, awesome, let's go. And so way back when I was brand new and like a brand new coach, that exact scenario came up. It was a racer dude. was a track I had never been to in my entire life. And I was 27 years old, but I looked like I was about 17. So this guy was highly unimpressed and he wanted to make certain that I knew that.

Sorry. my bad. My bad.

Speaker 1 (19:40.11)
And basically just on the track like we start with fourth gear no brakes and it's really difficult to do that at a pace to You know as coaches were responsible for setting a safe pace for the student I don't want to haul ass into a corner and drag you in and have you crash and then you blame me or whatever And then I take that very seriously. I want to set it to whatever I think the student is capable of

But when you don't know the track and you don't know the student yet and you've got fourth gear, no breaks, it's not an easy learning curve, especially when you have someone that's really determined to prove that you're setting it wrong. And so he was just on my ass the whole time. He was just trying to pass me on the exits. He was just looking irritated. And I just started to get really nervous and go like, he really doesn't want me as his coach. And I don't know that I can handle this guy. Like maybe he's kind of really fast. And I just really didn't have a lot of confidence.

I will also add that most guys like that don't want to deal with fourth gear no breaks. They're clueless about why that is and why that is implemented. So that's part of the reason he's probably riding your ass because he just wasn't playing the game. Go ahead. Sorry.

So that was part of it too. And I just really didn't have any confidence. And I just thought like, like I'm going to have to give this guy up and it's going to be super embarrassing. And he just really doesn't want me. And then I went to Kobe committed to saying, like, I think someone needs to take this guy. He's really unimpressed. And know, Kobe just looked straight at me and he's like, you know, you're the coach, you're the professional. Can you ride faster than him and do your job? And I said, well, yes, I'm just too worried about how much he hates me. And he's like,

Well, who cares? Just go out and be a good coach and prove to him that you're fast enough. And I just had this stomach that it was just going to make everything worse. But I did. And I just went out and just made it very clear that I was much quicker and could see what he was doing. I came in with very clear observations. I made myself look very bored. And I just sort of acted like you're either here to take instruction from me or you're not. And the change was fascinating. It was like he...

Speaker 1 (21:46.914)
completely changed. He participated, he listened and I just gave him very little emotion, stated the facts. When we exited that corner, did I essentially leave you in the dust on exit because I rolled on the gas harder and earlier than you? yes, you did. Okay, cool. Well, will you make improvements next time? Yes, I will. Great. And he was an entirely different student. And so, you know, that was in the early days and it wasn't always like, you know, it took a lot of confidence building and self confidence.

to point where 20 years later when it does happen, I go, okay, now I'm gonna fun.

You have complete permission. It's such a Superbike school thing to know that Kobe said that to you because that's totally Kobe and that's totally the school. I mean, the school is not going to be intimidated by a rider and that's basically what Kobe was giving you permission to exploit, right? To this day.

That acknowledgement of like, you know, he was kind of like, well, I don't give a shit whether you're a woman or not. If you can be a good coach and you can ride faster than the student, then go and do that. And then on the flip side, like sometimes we do get students or I do. Okay, maybe not the other coaches. This will come up. But sometimes we get really, really quick students. I mean, sometimes we go and, you know, we have national level racers and really fast students.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:13.608)
And, sometimes people question, you know, like, well, you know, if you don't have those types of finishes and you, know, what are your race stats? How can you effectively coach that person? And, you know, I'll say, okay, well, I don't have to be that fast. See what that person's doing that, that would help them become faster. And it just goes to say the best riders, athletes, drivers, people in their sports in the world.

always have a coat and you know the coach is not better than them because they're the coach.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:48.416)
Right. Well, man, there's so many things I want to talk about right there. But something I talk about a lot with with our guests is intuitive writers. And, you know, people just need to understand and well, should understand that there are a lot of super fast writers out there.

and they ride intuitively and they're even safe. I talked about it with James, I talked about it with Johnny, and we're talking about it now. I talked about it with a lot of people. But that does not mean that they could be a coach or that they understand all the fundamentals or that they can even self-analyze or do what they want to do or make changes. We've all talked about this. I think that's important to just get that point across to all of our listeners, you know?

Just just because somebody's faster or if you are fast just because you are faster Doesn't mean that you don't need to be coached It doesn't mean that your coach needs to be as fast as you either because the coach is the coach the coach is the one with the tools that we were just talking about and you're You're the person that came here to get some tools. So just let the coach do their job You don't have there's the sword fight thing, know how there's a lot of guys who just want to prove, you know that they're

Whatever that is, they just need to know that they're fast or faster or whatever.

Here's a good, you know, to your point. We've had Thomas Luthy come and take the Superbike school before and he showed up and takes the student as a level or takes the school as a level one student. So here you have a racer of his caliber showing up and doing the drills as a level one student, fourth year, no breaks, working on throttle control just like anyone else. And the guy needed work on his throttle control.

Speaker 1 (25:41.058)
And he was so humble and so willing to be coached that there was a moment and this was at Sonoma where I, you know, jumped behind him and was able to tag along for a few corners, realistically, barely, if that. And and he saw me jump behind him and I wasn't his coach. And at the end of the session, he saw me walk by and he goes, I saw you jump behind me.

Did you notice anything? And I just about fell out of my fricking leathers because I was like, here's this rider that can clearly kick my ass. He's one of the best riders in the world. And yet he's humble enough to turn to especially and say, did you notice anything? And I said, actually, if you'd to entertain me, I did notice something. And he's like, what did you notice? And I said, well, when you enter the carousel,

you know, you were actually exiting pretty wide as you enter through there. You don't need to, you could straight line it through there and take a much, you know, tighter entrance. And he's like, Whoa, that's a great point. Thank you so much. I'm going to try that. And I was like, Holy shit. just gave Thomas Luthy a coaching pointer and he accepted it. And so I think that's a prime example of someone who knew he was passing everyone, right? But

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:05.472)
Yet he was there to say, these are professionals, they're professional observers, they're professional communicators, and I might learn a thing or two. And sure enough, you know, was open to that, which is what I think creates a really, really good student is someone who's open to that learning in the first place.

Yeah, and I think it's a I think it's a like basically he didn't have anything to prove, right? So he didn't have that monkey on his back right? And so that's a message to all of us is we really want to go to the track and we could talk about that a lot, but maybe we'll just talk about a little bit because we could. I could talk about that forever, because I mean the bottom line is is like who impresses you at the track? That's the thing like who impresses me at the track like

at all.

Speaker 2 (27:55.242)
I don't get impressed if he showed if that guy showed up at the track. I wouldn't be impressed by that. I would just be like, that's a good writer moving on. And that's a good writer. Good for him. Moving on. And plenty of ladies. That's a good writer moving on. Like, I'm not really super impressed. There's a lot of good writers. When I get impressed is when I see young men like Kenzai, Kenzie, Matsudaira. He is a good writer. great. But I witnessed that kid hop on.

six different motorcycles in the same day at a brand new track to him. And two or three of those bikes were leader bikes, which he doesn't really ride. And he almost broke the lap record on my bike, which is a leader bike, right? I'm impressed, right? But just riders that are coming to the racetrack, there's 5 million guys that are fast. So that's the message I'm sending is you're not impressing anybody. And if you want to get

better, just go find Misty. Misty's got the tools. Misty's got the tools. One more thing about the coach thing though is I see that too, just as an analogy is like, do you know who Sergey Kovalev is? The boxer or Canelo Alvarez. Okay, so these, we box a little bit, right? So it's not box. Canelo Alvarez is a great boxer.

Amazing.

Speaker 2 (29:21.772)
He's a he's a Valentino Rossi of boxing. Okay, and Sergey Kovalev a little higher weight class also They call him the crusher. He used to keep that he's out now, but he they used to call him the crusher So Canelo Alvarez gets it goes up and wait so he can fight. Okay, and they fight right now Do you think even you don't know these guys? But do you think either one of these guys would go fight the other guy?

without a coach. That's a silly thing to think. They need to be observed, right? Before the fight, right? The coach is going to coach based on what he sees in the other guy. There's all this toolbox coming out. How am going to train my guy to deal with that thing? Right. And then, and then, so that goes on for months and then the fight comes and now the coach is observing the fight and it comes back after every three minutes and the coach has to, has, has like a minute to give them some

tell you.

tools, right? So those coaches are not necessarily good boxers at all. If you look at those coaches, they just understand the game. So I see that as an analogy to just try to simplify what we're really trying to say is a good coach is just a good coach. Doesn't matter if you can beat them. If you're a really fast, intuitive writer, if you want to get better and safer and have more confidence, you need to get coached. Okay. Agreed.

That we beat that dead horse, didn't Okay.

Speaker 1 (30:49.432)
Yeah.

Love it. You were gonna go back to student stuff.

Yeah, so we talked about you covered it a little bit, what to you what makes a good student? What's a good student? You don't have to tell me what a bad one is, but just what's a good one? What makes your day easy?

student is someone who puts their own ego aside and says, I'm going, whether I think I agree or not with what this person is telling me, I'm going to go out and give it a try because I'm open to what they're saying and that it may make me a better writer. And then they go out and decide for themselves, did that work or not? And then they come back and tell the truth, right? Because

You know, one of the things I hate the most and kids are really good at doing this is when you come in and you go, hey, did you notice a difference to your writing of whatever exercise they were doing? And the kids will go, yeah. And you'll go, okay, what was the difference? Well, it was just better. Better how? Well, it was just better. And then I'll just look at them and go, are you just telling me it's better because you know that that's what I want to hear or is it actually better? And then they'll go, okay, actually I didn't notice it. Great. You didn't notice the difference. Let's try something else. So I don't want you to give me the answer you.

Speaker 1 (32:03.658)
I want to hear I want you to go out and try it and then give me the truth if you don't know what reference point you're looking at when you know you go in turn for it looking at Seca then come back and say I actually don't know what I'm looking at great let's go find something that you do know you're looking at if I ask you a question where you're rolling on the gas and you tell me you know you're unsure that's fine you're unsure let's go find out so a good student is willing to try their

willing to tell the truth and they're willing to ask questions. And if something doesn't resonate, they'll say, I don't, this doesn't really make any sense. Can you explain it again? Or, you know, the, I think the biggest thing is willingness to try. You sometimes I'll just get the most random people that become literally the best students because they're just like, okay, I'll go try that. And they have zero conceived notion.

or ego about it. Women in particular tend to be better students for that reason because they're

Totally agree.

I know what makes me really proud is when I'll see a student who just, you know, is able to push through that. like sometimes it's, you know, an egotistical male rider that showed up with an attitude who thinks he doesn't want a female coach who then totally turns around and becomes the most open rider out there. I mean, I had, so here's a cool story. It's not in the book. probably could be.

Speaker 2 (33:37.486)
Yeah, well, we don't want to regurgitate the book anyway, so fire away.

So this is a new student. So one of the things in our coaching toolbox on our toolkit and on top of our observation skills and our questioning skills and our, you know, knowledge of the tech is also the ability to sort of adjust our communication ways to match the person we're communicating with. So for example,

Wait, time out. This is huge. Everybody pay... I don't know what you're gonna say, but this is so important what you're about to say. I'm hoping it's what I think you're gonna... Yeah, but it's just a big huge deal, man. I've just witnessed this so many times I can't... I couldn't possibly count, so fire.

No pressure, no pressure, okay.

Speaker 1 (34:23.726)
good at matching patients' with the student that we're working with. So for example, I am a very excitable, huggy, positive, upbeat, energetic person. I truthfully scare the shit out of some of my students because they just do not match that level of enthusiasm and it pisses them off, to be frank. And so I had a student who, quite frankly, came across as a royal asshole.

immediately on the starting line. Classic guy who seemed like he didn't want a female coach, old school racer dude, older guy, attitude galore. He came across as an asshole. And I was like, great, I have got my stuff cut out for me. So immediately I brought my energetic level down a little bit and just, yeah, okay, got it. Cool. We're working on the drills, blah, blah, blah.

And I was just determined to get to this guy. Like, okay, he seems like such a jerk, but I really want to like get to this guy. I don't want to give him up. And it was a struggle. Very little communication, single word answers, not buying into stuff. I was like, guy does not like me. And so at lunch, I remember noticing that he was sitting off by himself and that he was on his iPad watching something. So I kind of casually just walked.

by and I wasn't like snooping or anything but I kind of casually walked by and I could see that he was watching a race or something. I just sort of joked around and they went by like, cool, you're watching racing, that's cool. Like, did you race before? What are you into? Chat, chat, chat. Turns out he used to race and he was a doctor of all things. And I was like, this guy's a doctor? That's insane. He has zero doctor communication ability. ooh. And so then I slowly just started to like, okay, this guy's pretty serious. He seems a little, you know, but I want to...

I want to get to him, so I want to be jokey. I want to break that armor.

Speaker 2 (36:19.608)
Put them up, man, you try to open up that can.

Yeah, but it was really hard and I was just being real cautious and I couldn't let my whole exuberant self out. And so we got to the point where I was like, I got a little grin from him about an exercise that we had just been doing on track. And I was like, okay, I'm writing down your level four assignment. You how we write it on the stick it notes, right? And then instead of handing it to him, I just grabbed it. And for whatever reason, I just smashed it against his leathers and like, mashed it on his chest like this, right?

And I got like this weird little snort laugh from him. and I was like, I'm breaking through the armor. got it. got it. Nice. And so I just started like poking around a little and doing these little cracks and like little encouragements and such. And he started to really open up personally so much, but on track, accepting a little bit more of the thumbs up, accepting my, my praise that he was improving, admitting, buying in a little bit. He was there. We were getting to him.

that are like best student award, best student of the day award or whatever. And we have those and we- You do? These are like, yeah. I was just gonna say, shit, now I just like, we do, we have them as like these special little medallions. And out of the blue, I just thought, you know what, as much as like this guy still doesn't match my personality level, like he turned around, he became a really good student, I got a smile from him, he's buying into the program, he made improvements, like-

actually, this guy fits the bill. He's a most improved student of mine, and I think he deserves this. However, I was hesitant about his personality, like, will he accept this or whatever? And I was like, you know what, screw it. He deserves it. I'm doing this. It was the end of the day. We were at Streets of Willow. I went and found him and he was putting all this stuff away in the trailer. And I said, hey, just wanted to say it was really nice working with you. And I thought that you were an outstanding student and here. gave this to this

Speaker 1 (38:15.608)
Trotchety grouchy and like originally who I thought was this asshole of a man and I swear to God he got tears in his eyes and he looked away and Sniffled and had to leave and I had to leave because I was gonna cry His friend afterward came up to me and said it was probably one of the most special things that had ever happened and that he's typically quite shy and That that really made something special for him

Speaker 2 (38:55.854)
of guys that come across as assholes when you meet them that aren't necessarily but that's a great story man that's a great story and also maybe maybe that's kind of the way he was processing his anxiety like if he hasn't been to the track a lot or whatever and that's how it came out came out is he just looked and acted like an ass but he was really just you know stressing out a little bit there but that's so cool

was just really cool because it's, you know, like it just shows and this is part of what I want the book to include as well is that it just shows the human side of like students and coaches and, also what it's like for me that, that I have to spend this internal agonizing time worrying about whether or not I'm going to get through to the student and how am I going to help them and am I being a good coach and is he going to be safe on track and like the, the efforts that we put into encouraging them.

based on their personality and their a bit like we meet them where they are. think really important is, is wherever you are in your journey, we'll meet you there and encourage you whether you're brand new and you're freaked out and you've never been on the racetrack before. I'm going to be there saying like, I got you or you're pro racer guy. I'm going to say, yeah, you want that 10th of a second. I get it. I know what that feels like and I'm going to help you get it. So game on let's go.

That's so awesome. That's so cool. And that's the reality of it too, man. I can speak from firsthand experience. You're awesome. You're a great coach. You're a really good coach. And you know, what's interesting about good coaches is we remember certain things, you know what I mean? Like a hurdle. I remember a hurdle or two that you helped me with. And that's a sign of having been well-coached is, you know, when there's a coach that spends a day or two with you you make a milestone,

That's proof in the pudding right there. You know what I mean? If you're still friends after that, which of course you are. But hey, back to the good student thing. Have you or do you ever preface the day by talking about that stuff with the student? I know it doesn't happen very often with who I spend a lot of time with as a student. you know what I mean? Like, you ever go to your students and say, look, we're going to have a great day?

Speaker 2 (41:15.81)
I know you're probably nervous. I know you're probably anxious. But if you could just be fully honest with me and tell me when you don't see it, tell me when you do see it. If you don't feel it, tell me. Do you ever do that? Do you ever like sort of pre-program like that?

Does it help? I mean, it's actually in the coaching manual that, you know, before we send the students or before the students go out the second, you know, session out, we do explain that what we expect from the student and that is like, hey, I'm letting you know that I'm going to see you on track. You won't know when it is, but I'm going to follow you on track at least once. I'm going to observe where you're doing well and where needs improvement. I'm going to lead you if I think it's necessary.

And my expectation is that you're going to pay attention to what you're doing on the racetrack because I know what I see you're doing on the track, but I want you to know because it's not going to do any good if I go, Hey, Rick, you know, did you run wide in turn three? And you're like, no, like, okay, wait, hang on. My reality is that you're this close to the edge of the track and about to run off and die. your reality is you're not running wide. Okay. Let's go from there. But if you're not paying any attention and you're like, I don't know. Well that we're not going to get anywhere. So.

I do preface it, we do preface it with, please pay attention to your own riding because we're going to ask you some questions about it. And when I say, where did you notice the bike get good stability from using the throttle? I hope that you'll be able to come in and say, actually, I felt the bike get stable in turn one.

And you know, then that's when I'll bring my observation in and go, okay, awesome. You felt it in turn one. Well, where I really noticed it was freaking you railed around turn three and had the best line through there ever. You didn't run wide. Awesome job. Yeah, absolutely. And then if I notice people are looking more nervous, right? Like you have on the one hand, a guy that looks like he's an asshole and doesn't want me to participate too much or coddle him on the flip side.

Speaker 1 (43:12.91)
I could have someone that is shaking like a leaf that they're going out on track. And I have done, I have gone to people and I have gone like this and gone turned off their bike and gone, hey man, up for sec. Take a look at me, look at my eyes, deep breath, fricking smile and say, I'm at a racetrack. And then put that smile on your face and breathe. I'm going to take really good care of you. We're going to have an awesome time. It's just like, are way too nervous. Roll out right now. Let's take a breath.

And I think that's really important too as a coach is that you notice, do you have someone that's shaking as a leaf and they're nervous? Do you have someone that looks vague and maybe they're dehydrated or they haven't, they're not all there? Do you have someone who seems like they're too distracted? Are they making mistakes? Right? Like it, it, it.

becomes, you know, life and death almost in our observations. Like we get to the point where we observe something and we pull in students to say, urge stop, whoa. Ride like that anymore and you will crash. So you need to come off for a bit and we're going to talk about what you're doing so that you don't end up in the ditch.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:25.162)
Yeah. You were just talking about I'm just going to tell you this. I hope you don't mind me telling little tidbits about you and me, because that's what's coming to my mind. But one of the things you just said something about you following somebody and they didn't know you were there or whatever. But what that made me think of is one of the milestones that you gave me in my writing was we're hauling ass at the ridge and

You we came in and you said, you seem to be going faster when I'm in front of you. I don't know if you remember this, but it's in the notes. Yeah. So, I said, no, there's no way, man. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm hauling ass. I don't know when you're back there, but tell me when you're back there and then I'll go faster. Right. Cause, and part of that's true. Like I don't really ride. I ride at like 70.

Good.

Speaker 2 (45:21.486)
5 % most of the time unless there's a coach that I want to have fun with but in reality you were right you know I was riding much faster than I would if I was pushing if I was behind you. Jason now tell everybody what that means what does that mean because we fixed it or I have fixed it since then maybe we didn't fix it all that day

Okay, well, I'll tell you what people normally think it means. And normally they say, well, I'm just doing that because the person in front gives me confidence. Because if I see them going through the corner, then I know that I can make the corner. sure, granted, there may be some element of that. But typically speaking, what has changed is that the person behind is now looking up, their vision is looking up a little further ahead at the rider in front of them.

which is giving them a different perspective visually of how speed and timing is processed. And so most people find it much easier to follow than to lead because they already have this relaxed visual sequence because they can keep the person in front in their perspective. When all of a sudden it's up to you as the person in front to

you know, pick your reference points to see through the corner to get your vision up ahead. It's real easy to target fixate, to lose that wide view, to have your vision creep down a little bit. For sure, there's an element of emotional sort of security knowing that, you know, buddy in front of you just went into that turn that quickly, but it's not guaranteeing that you're going to be able to as well. It's a visual change in how you're perceiving things.

And I think that's a way that people can then say, okay, how can I take this and apply it so that I can ride just as fast when I'm leading as I am when I'm following? And how am I gonna do that? I'm going to take this feeling of being visually behind Misty and now I'm gonna say, okay, if she wasn't there, how am I gonna find the spots where she is and get my eyes to those point without her in front of me?

Speaker 2 (47:35.864)
Yeah, so big message big message to Misty the coaches. It's a vision issue. It's a vision thing, right?

Yeah, I think so when it's obvious like that.

Yeah, here's the interesting thing is at least in my case is I believed what I told you at the time at the time I actually believed my explanation of why I was going faster when you were leading me I believed that I just decided to go faster because you were going faster and I was Consciously not needing or wanting to go that fast and it's just not true But I you're so you're the one that got me to analyze that and look at that

And of course we worked on it that day, but it's a bigger realization. It's a bigger, it's a bigger thing for somebody to realize that they're basically lying to themselves. You know what I'm saying? So that's stuff I had to work on for years after that. You know, it's all of it. You, you, want perfect. We want to try to be perfect as perfect as we can with our, with our vision, whatever that means. And so that's something we all work on. Right. I'm sure that's what we worked on after that is, you know, visual cues and things.

and just picking, okay, let's notice, like, where were you not getting that same drive? Where were you falling behind a little bit? Where are you lacking reference points? And that's where it becomes the coach's job to not just leave you hanging at, okay, well, guess what? You ride faster when someone's in front of you, whoop-de-doo, okay, great, what am I gonna have to do? Wait till someone's in front of me all the time? No, we're gonna take that and now we're gonna apply it and figure out why that is the case.

Speaker 1 (49:12.022)
And so then I have to ask you, what are you using as your reference points? When are you looking to them? Is there anywhere that feels vague? And through that process, I'm sure we found out, you know what? You have one reference point here, one there, but oops, you're missing one for the exit of turn whatever. If we had one, would that help improve your drive out? Yes, absolutely. So it's taking it to that next step.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:40.392)
after you have that observation and that realization.

And the level that can be attained with that is how I explain this. If I have a day with James or Johnny, which is pretty much where I spend my time there now, I'll very commonly have Johnny basically say, do you see the little silver, little freckly speckly thing next to the paint and corner or whatever? Are you seeing that thing? And you know,

What you're seeing when you're well trained and you work on these things are very, very little things. I things that, like I'm just trying to explain to the listeners here that we're not talking always about a flag or a cone or the shape of the track, which are all good things. But when you get advanced with your vision skills, you're seeing very little things.

Yeah, you're seeing like this the the little dig in the pavement that's this long at the apex That's right here. That's aimed like, you know, like a little moon or whatever It's like I'm going right effing there and then I'm going there and then I'm going there I like what go back to what you said about like about being caught like lying to yourself, right? Because I think that's a huge part of what makes a good student is someone saying like shit

I'm kind of lying to myself. I shouldn't do that. If I want to actually get better, I need to push through this and say, you know what, maybe the coach is really right here. And maybe I am doing that. This is a huge part of why I've put stories into my technique book because I was a super high school student before I became a coach. And so I know damn well what it's like to sit on the start finish line.

Speaker 2 (51:19.956)
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (51:38.378)
Shaking in my boots like being nervous about the track but also thinking that I was freaking hot shit And I was gonna prove everyone how great of a rider I was and that I didn't really need coaching because it was such hot shit, right and It worked that way and I got my ass handed to me It was a massive hit to my ego But instead of going they don't know what they're talking about. Screw this I went

hang on, these people are really fast and they know what they're talking about and clearly I don't, so how can I learn from them? And put that aside because like what is that doing for me? It's just gonna keep me slow and not knowing what I'm doing. This way I can improve and actually know what I'm doing on the motorcycle.

Yeah, and that's great. And I'll add to that. What I believe one trait of a good student is is videotape everything, everything. Every time your wheels are rolling, your camera is on at least one camera. And what what that's for.

is for your own observation. So you don't always have to have a professional coach. You can learn how to observe yourself and then take that home in the peace and quiet of your den or your office or whatever and watch your videos and then think, what did the coach tell me? I have all these notes and watch the video and self analyze your writing. And that's where that's where I figured it out. That's where I figured out I was lying to myself.

Cause I'm like, my God, you know, I'm watching my video. I'm like, she's a hundred percent right. I'm definitely, you know, that makes sense. So, I mean, that's happened to me on countless, you know, fundamental things, right? So, I mean, for me, that's been a big, huge thing. So my message to the students out there that want to be better, videotape everything, watch it at home, watch it with your coach, you know, or watch it with somebody that's a good observer and take notes and.

Speaker 2 (53:44.426)
Accept the reality of what's recorded because it will probably be different than what you remember the experience to be so I mean Yeah, anyway

Yeah, I think I think that's important and like same with you know photos like what is this photo showing like you think you look like you know, you're dragon elbow and you're all crossed up and you you don't look the same as what you actually think So yeah, I do I do think that's a good sign of yep what you said being a good student is just letting some of that go and and say and also noticing like I'll tell my students the first step to making improvements is actually noticing when you're doing something wrong because

A lot of times you don't know you're doing it. You didn't know that you were riding faster when I was in front of you versus when you were by yourself. In fact, you argued against it and thought the reverse. And so the point is that then we talked about it and then you started to notice like, hang on a sec, am I riding faster when someone else is in front of me?

And then, and then once you started to notice that, that's when you started to be able to say, okay, now I'm noticing that maybe there's an error here or that this isn't as perfect as it could be. Maybe I can make improvement, know, cause something, cause that's our role as observers as well is sometimes just to point out, like, did you realize you were riding with super tense arms and like you look like you have no neck and they're like, no, I didn't know that next time out. They'll go, I totally noticed that I was tensing up.

Great, that's your first step into changing that because now you know you're doing it wrong. You didn't know that before.

Speaker 2 (55:18.688)
Yeah, that's interesting. A little bit different subject, but I'm just curious because it's fun. What do you, you know, when we get to writing a little bit faster and we're passing people, you know, that's a whole skill all in and of itself, right? And I'm a big proponent of having predefined passing zones. That's what I call them. I don't know what you call, if you have something like that.

But I will not pass in a zone that I have not predefined as a rule, and I will only pass in a predefined passing zone. But to get to a passing zone, we're going to be seeing other riders, right? And I sort of see them as a fuzzy blob. Like I'm looking for I'm looking for other things. I just see them there. I know they're there. But then there are other people that see the other riders and can explain the lettering.

Like, did you see that guy with the guy with the, you know, with the four letters on his shoulder? I'm like, no, no, I didn't. You could tell me what color I might get the color, but I'm not going to get the letters, dude. Like, I'm not looking at that. So I'm just curious, what do you, what in your mind are you seeing when you are observing other writers with the intention of, you know, just passing other people on the track?

I that's a really good question actually because as coaches, especially with the Superbike School, I mean we're trained not only to observe our own students, but we're also trained to observe anything on track whatsoever that is not up to 100 % safety standards. So that being said, if I'm hauling ass leading a quick student...

and suddenly I see someone else on track make a crappy pass or run super wide or make an error, I need to immediately leave what I'm doing and jump in and take over that scenario and solve the safety issue immediately. That being said, we have things we need to do as part of our job description that we need to be observant of.

Speaker 1 (57:24.6)
Now that being said, we don't always see everything that everyone else is doing because I have the same method of passing, especially when I'm coaching as you do, is that we need to obviously see where the students are, but you can have such a different speed differential when you're on tracks like the way we coach the Superbike school that we can't pay much attention to each individual student because it's

drastically affects our ability to make safe, capable passes. for one, our visual skills have to be on par to be able to pass safely and lead our students to pass safely as well. But we also need to be doing that with the ability to see, okay, number 17 just ran wide in the corner. Is that bad enough for me to ditch what I'm doing and take number 17 in, or am I going to file that for later and pull in afterwards and tell Trevor, 17 ran wide.

in corner three back then two laps ago. And so there's a lot mentally that's going on for us as coaches beyond what you just said. So yeah, sometimes my visual skills are exact to say, yeah, it was number 17. He's got a day and easy suit. You know, his, his leather said, you know, Mark, and he's, he's riding a, you know, a red CBR 600, whatever.

So there's different levels of observation skills that I think we have to have. In terms of passing, I like what you said about sort of passing zones. We don't necessarily restrict at the track where you can and cannot pass for the most part. Except there are very strict passing rules, meaning six to eight feet at all times.

Of yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:12.238)
Now what we do try to teach at the school is open door versus closed door and obviously making sure your passes is safe within that whole bubble. But what I do think it brings up is just that sort of exceptional level of observation skills required by a bunch of coaches that are on track with the same goal of not only making sure their students improve, but making sure

all the students on track. So it's a bigger responsibility than I think some people realize. And sorry, just to go back to those zones, sometimes, especially as a coach when we're leading faster students, or if we're on a faster lap or whatever, we may have a plan, but sometimes you come up on students quicker than maybe that

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

So there's been a multitude of times where I was like, I wasn't planning on passing here, but I must do so because there is nowhere else to go. Now it's still a safe path because I'm experienced enough to be able to execute that and I don't put myself in that danger zone. However, that is a testament to our training, our riding abilities, our level.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27.862)
my god, for sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

and an important distinction. like, I think that was a really good question. I hope I answered it.

No, you did. let me, let me, just for the sake of the listeners, I will explain why I do that. You can probably guess. Let me give you an example. The, let's see, two, three, four, turn five at the ridge. You remember that turn? It's, it's coming out onto the straight. A lot of people pass on the outside right there, you know, and I don't have that. I will not do it. I can't do it because I haven't, I haven't,

made that a passing zone for myself and for me to make that a passing zone for myself I will either give it to a coach and we will go work on that because I haven't visually calculated passing out there and you know if you don't get the pass done it's a clusterfuck right because they're coming over eventually

They can come over. Yeah. Here's just the distinction. And this is like the coach and me and the listening and the specific things that you just said. while I appreciate your hesitation to pass on the outside there, and while I do agree that that typically is a closed door pass, meaning you exit out there, most students run wide.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46.177)
Yes, of course.

Faster students think they have room. go to class from the outside. Students come this way. They run out of room. The door has just closed on them. Absolutely.

And it's not even short, it's closed door from the very beginning.

Totally. Now, my only thing with what you just said is it's going to limit you in the situation where you may have to pass on the outside because the student is considerably slower than you because they don't let the bike run all the way out because there's other students here or whatnot. How I would push you knowing that I've ridden with you before, knowing that you're a level four student, et cetera, is to just say what

What is your plan B? If you end up having to pass there, how would you execute that if you've never done it before? How could you take that that you've never really passed there and yourself the opportunity that if it did come up that you had to make that pass, how would you make sure you did it successfully?

Speaker 2 (01:02:53.038)
That's a great, that's a really, really good question. And that's, that's not a question that I would answer haphazardly because it's, it's complicated, which is why it's on my list and it's on my list for years because I don't, cause I, I'm, I, won't, when I ride, I, I don't have a problem waiting. So I'll just wait for the window to open the second the window starts opening. I'm down the, on the low side.

And that's just how I pass in that corner. I just wait.

So what if you didn't have to wait? What if there was a way that you could pass?

Totally agree. Totally agree. 100%. And so this is my, this is, this is it. So we're doing it right now. So, um, Hey man, if I see you at the track again, let's do it. But it's on my list. I'm, I just wanted to bring that up because I think it's good for people to hear. Like there's lots of writers out there, but it's a, it's a different way of thinking about your writing. I have rules for where I pass. I will not pass where I don't, where I haven't predefined a passing zone.

That is a zone that is not a passing zone for me. Is it on my list? Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04.168)
So then so then here's this because and again I'm just gonna preface to everyone listening that I I know you're riding and I've ridden behind you and I know your ability level and I know that sometimes we get caught up in passing slower students for the reason of passing and wanting to make sure that it is a safe and carefully executed pass which I fully support and I fully want to make sure that everyone knows that I want

like these passes have to be safe, et cetera. However, sometimes when you have to adjust and wait or slow down or adjust your line because of a slower student, it is less safe and less smooth and less fluid than if you were just able to make a safe pass in that instance. And typically that is a visual skill. And so what I would suggest, because you have said

that you very much have rules and I know that you're like a rule guy and you're notes guy and you have things a certain way is I would say, fine, let's go out and intentionally work on passing me to start if I was your coach on that outside and planning for it or having a plan B in case you had to. Now, this is also acknowledging that it's not necessarily the best and safest place to pass. However, Totally.

Also have to take into consideration. What do you do when shit hits the fan and you can't go this way? Yeah, you have to make a last-minute decision. You don't want to be stuck in you're like, well, I only pass in this

No, no, course right it shit hits the fan we're gonna we're gonna make the best of the situation But you're saying the exact right thing and it's not always a school either. I mean this applies to track day riders I mean it mostly that's kind of who I was thinking I was talking to is track day people because man if you just ride regular track days it can really be a clusterfuck I mean it can really be a mess on the track and

Speaker 2 (01:06:04.682)
It would be to me it would be great if everybody had passing zone personal passing zones and don't fucking try to pass someone if you don't have visual cues nailed down with closing beads identified in your brain you got to map it all into your head so you so you know right that the the differential speeds in your brain is used to what that's going to do as you move through the turn

and you know what you're seeing and all of that stuff is what I know just as a writer, I know that I want to do that for that turn is what I'm really saying. And other writers should have some sort of passing discipline.

Absolutely. And this is exactly why we do the exercise that is the change lines drill. So, you know, a lot of people roll their eyes at like, okay, we do three laps, you do one lap completely on the left side of the track, one lap on completely the right side of the track to the point where you're like supposed to ride up and over the curbs and like check out the rumple strips and like check out the track from the far extreme sides. And then typically if we have time, we'll do a lap in the middle. Now, even I,

thought this was a stupid exercise. Like, what's the point of doing all this? But I did when I was a student and I rode up over all the curbs, which I never had done in all my racing or anything had I ever intentionally run up over a curb. Well, let me tell you, immediately after I did the school and we did the change the lines exercise, I went to a race at a track in Eastern Canada, Shubhanacadie that I'd never ridden before and

off the start, I got pushed and it's a super bump. It's like the bumpiest track in North America, I swear. And right off the start, I got pushed the amateur 600 national championship, pushed super wide and I ended up getting pushed off the edge of the track and there was a huge curb. Okay. I had just practiced during practice session. At very end, we got the checkered flag and I was one of the last riders. So I had just practiced.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06.382)
left side, right side, like riding up over curbs, checked it all out. All of a sudden mid race, I'm being pushed wide. There's this huge curb and I was all, I got this. I just did this. I know how this is going to be. boom, fuck yeah, I'm good. And I was fine. And I also knew, okay, now I'm on the extreme inside of this turn. So I bumped over the whatever. Now I know how tight the radius is for this.

I'm going to have to way slow down. on this weird wonky line, but I knew because I just done it. And sure enough, I like stuffed it in there off. go back online sorted because I had done that. So that's where I would say if we go to the ridge and we start pushing you to pass on the inside, pass on the outside, visually not get distracted or give yourself those dead fast rules and let your vision.

distinguish whether it's safe to pass on the outside or not. Because guaranteed most of the time I don't pass on the outside there, I'll square it up and wait. However, sometimes that is not the fastest and quickest way through. And I just need to carry that. So that's where as a coach, if this was real time, those are the things I would think of here. I would question you on I would go let's okay, by the way and make that a goal.

how we can improve your visuals to be able to make those passing decisions immediately and in the moment.

Yeah, and and just to reiterate the point well one of the points we're making with this whole little story here is that as you become a Professional student, you know and you know your coaches capabilities you make plans to be coached So I may have just said it haphazardly, but literally I have a list of things

Speaker 2 (01:09:56.75)
That we could all make a list of things that we want to accomplish on the racetrack We should all have that list and that's on my list So as a if you want to be a good student and you kind of understand, you know If you've been coached a lot or you understand how to take advantage of a good coach You should come with a shopping list and just you know, yeah I'm gonna do your drills and I'm gonna let you observe me and I'm gonna work on that

But hey, I have this on my shopping list. So before we're done this week, you know, I just want to have that all vetted out. I need that map in my head. This is where, where, you know, having an association, association with a good coach like you, guess I'm just selling, having a coach really, because people don't have coaches and don't want to pay for a coach. But man, if people are, if people are listening to this podcast right now, if it's not obvious that you're going to benefit from a

You're kind of nuts because it's obvious to me even I mean, right? What were you going to say?

I was going to say, think that that's a huge part of my book is in that like, I didn't know anything about writing when I started. Like I just randomly got into writing. I happened to be naturally good at it. You've mentioned intuitive writer. I was like the epitome of don't tell me what to do. I've already got it figured out. I'm an intuitive writer. I thought I knew everything that you needed to know and that you just had to figure it out by crashing.

because that was normal and then getting back on your bike and doing it again. And it wasn't until I ended up at the Superbike as a school, as a student, and this was a lovely gift that I never would have been able to afford on my own. Like I am so grateful for that opportunity, but it was eye-opening because I really truly did show up thinking that I knew that they weren't gonna be able to teach me much. And it was so obvious instantly.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32.28)
Go.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56.45)
that I was like, like I was sitting at the steering drill, you know, and I was like, I am going to prove to these guys that I'm the best skier that they've ever seen. They're going to just be so impressed with me. And then the coach was like, okay, so Miss Steven, you want the bike to go left? How do you make it go left? And I was like, you just like think about it. You just lean, you just aim, you just go that way. I had no idea. And in that moment I was like, wow, I don't even know I race.

and I don't even know how to turn my own motorcycle. And I didn't. And most people don't.

dude. funniest thing is that that is... Angus can verify this, but that is the very first question I will ask if I'm coaching someone or if somebody asks me for advice. That's the first thing I ask. Literally the first question I ask them. It happened... Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I wasn't coaching. It was at the Superbike school just this year. Very nice lady, very nice Canadian lady was there.

And she just happened to hop into me and James's group, which there wasn't, it was me and James. so we and John Groom crashed and she was a John Groom student. So she came over. We were just shooting the shit and she said something about just not feeling comfortable. And I asked her, oh, well, that's my, this is my favorite question. So this is how, that's how I brought it up. said, well, this is my favorite question. How are you, how are you steering?

And she said, well, I'm counter steering. And I'm like, OK, great. What is that? Like, what do you what? What is it? And she couldn't tell me. And I said, OK, well, I mean, join the club because, you know, that's super duper normal. But you need to go find James and just just make sure he can tell you exactly how you're steering, because it's so common. People even know what it's called because, you know, the whole industry has put this name on it now. But.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58.958)
It's still, they don't really know what the label is, you know, and it's so simple.

So simple and

Let's tell people listeners are going to want to know what it is. you say it.

Okay, well, it's been blown into way more complicated than it really is. Most people do it intuitively anyway. It's just when you're asked the question about how to actually steer your bike, you don't really know how to answer it. So basically at any speeds over 20 kilometers, mile to 30 kilometers an hour, 20 mile, whatever, just when you're rolling, you push on the right bar.

and the bike will go right, push on the left bar and the bike will go to the left. So you can try it on a bicycle. are doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:45.208)
Do it on your scooter in the parking lot. Test it.

Whatever, everyone's doing it without realizing it. The difference is that when you start to put it in your conscious and you really understand, then you are much more likely to make the right decision in a panic emergency situation than if you don't have that dialed in and you get this inconsistent or panic freeze mode and make the wrong choice.

Well, and maybe another way to say it is we can't manipulate it if we don't know what it is. Right. So, I mean, we can't play with it. We can't test it. We can't we can't manipulate it if we don't consciously know what it is. And so we need to take it out of subconsciousness and bring it into consciousness so that we can manipulate it and make it make it a data point that we can record somehow. Me and Johnny Ca-well.

In the engineering world, we call it impulse. That's a force times time. So how long are you pushing? How hard are you pushing and for how long? So if you don't even know how to steer, you certainly can't talk about force and duration. Exactly. And you can't break it down and make your writing super precise. So that's what we're really saying.

Absolutely, and it starts with that, you know, and again, this is why in the book I am open to saying, like, I was a student and I didn't know. Because I think that's, I think it's a way that it will bridge the gap between maybe people who, you know, were considering getting coaching and never did, or who hadn't really thought about it, is like, to just, to just know what my perspective was. Like, I was a, you know, I was a pretty successful

Speaker 1 (01:16:32.718)
successful. was a new racer. But I won. mean, I won the 650 championship in in my first official year of racing. I had a 650 twins championship from a local racing organization, male, female, legitimately, and showed up at the Superbike School and still didn't know how to steer my frickin motorcycle. I didn't know why I was high siding. I didn't know how to

So totally c-

Speaker 1 (01:17:00.226)
flip the throttle like I didn't know anything. just rode and crashed and thought, well, thankfully I didn't get hurt and now I'm going to do it again because crashing is part of it. So yeah, I want to be the sort of like the test dummy saying like I was that person that needed coaching.

Yeah, think all of us, yeah, I think so. think so. But what the big picture here is that if you're an intuitive writer and you're pretty good or you think you're good or maybe you are good, that doesn't mean you're done. That means that you need to stop being an intuitive writer. And if you want to be a good student or even not, by yourself even.

Stop being so intuitive and break down the fundamentals and figure out how it all works so that you can manipulate it. You will become a better writer. Yeah. There you go. So, oh man, dude, I could talk to you for hours. Tell me, I want to know about Phillip Island, but you already talked about it a little bit. Kind of. Please explain what it's like to write on that track.

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:18:10.488)
And I mean this sincerely, because I probably will never ride on it at this point. Well, I'm ramping down. I don't even. OK, well, tell me. I just want you to tell me we've we've ridden a lot of the same racetracks compared to one of those or several of those or just.

Don't say that. Don't say that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28.14)
Yeah, it's not comparable. It's impossible. You cannot compare it. The only thing you can compare it is like, okay, you know, sometimes when you're at the ridge and you can see like Mount Rainier in the background and you sometimes get distracted. Well, you get distracted the whole time at Phillip Island because there's the ocean and like beautiful trees and more ocean and like, and you're just like, it is insane. It is so much fun. It's so fast.

Well, what do mean you're just pinned? It's like what, what, like do they have any hair? They don't have any hair pins. Like it's just a really

Yeah, so the corners that I was really good at were the hairpin. So the ones that you know, I was really good at were the slowest corner. So I was really good at those ones. So there's two slow corners and the rest are pretty balls to the walls like really, really fast. then that typically is where I struggle the most. And so it was a really interesting track to try to push myself on because it's all the

Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:19:08.706)
Hahaha

Speaker 1 (01:19:28.876)
the types of corners that I struggle with the most. High entry speed, wide open, like long sweeping corners that I don't know where I'm going. You have to be really dialed. so it was really fun to jump out on track with the caliber of riders that I get to race with. So I don't know if you know, like, so basically we did two days of the school and then we were able to, one of the students rented the track as a private track day.

And so we were there to help on the private track day. So not only was it super awesome to ride Phillip Island under a structured environment, but it was like ultra super exceptionally awesome to ride it in an unstructured environment with maybe 12 people.

my God, what kind of weather, what kind of weather did you have?

It was pretty perfect. So it was a little, the little, so the first two days with the school, perfect, like mint, perfect. The, the, the open track day did rain initially. However, that was super cool because we did drive out and we got to look at the track, which was phenomenal because the whole time we were out there looking at the track and I was doing handstands and taking little gravel rocks with blue paint. Cause that was like a little,

probably get in trouble for taking one of those, but from Luke Heights, like a little gravel rock, but also going like, holy cow, who gets the opportunity to just like stand around Luke Heights in Siberia and freaking stoner corner and just look at the corner, light drizzle and take as long as we want to wander around and talk about the track. was phenomenal. And then the sky opened up and it cleared up and it was dry and it was windy.

Speaker 1 (01:21:06.606)
which was slightly sucky, but it was also really cool because then you got to really feel what it was like to ride with the wind threatening to blow you right off the track, which is like I actually scream in my helmet. Wow. So fun and so exciting. So yeah, it's a wild jack. Everyone should ride it. Everyone should. I think of like you can't slow down. Age is just the number.

that

Speaker 2 (01:21:28.268)
Super.

Speaker 2 (01:21:33.358)
I've already, you're way late girl, you're way late. I'm already slowed down. I am, I'm not stopping yet, but I'm definitely, I'm definitely like on the, I'm almost asymptotic. It's like, you know, I'm almost like, I'm going to ride the ridge. No, I mean, I don't want to get into all my reasons, but, but, uh, I have a bad back and bad neck and

as in all-

Speaker 1 (01:21:50.606)
Soon,

Speaker 2 (01:21:59.566)
The problem is, here's the short story, if you don't ride a lot, it's kind of a weird thing to try to keep in shape for because you kind of really need to just ride. mean, but I'm going to try to get in better riding shape without riding so that when I do go ride, you know, mostly I had my back in really good shape last time I rode, but then my neck was in so much pain. It was a race school too.

And then I crashed my supermoto, which wasn't a big, it was a low side thing, no big deal. Between that and my neck, I'm just like, okay, okay. I have rules for how long I want to live without being crippled too. So anyway, I'm having fun with it. what, in the book you, at the end, it might not be the end now, but you talked about the perfect.

The perfect drive. Do you? it? Okay. So this is important because I really, I really like the whole book, but I really liked what am I trying to say? I felt what you were saying about that subject as a writer. go ahead. Cool.

don't know what the question is, but...

question is is what what is the perfect ride like what why why are you even talking about that what does it mean

Speaker 1 (01:23:17.902)
Because it's just it's it's like this This moment that you get to experience and it's not it's not all the time But it's it's attainable and I've experienced it and I think it's something really special that riders who have experience with it can really understand the power of getting in the zone and when everything flows really well and

you know, I think there always has to be a balance between that intuitive writing, right? Because I really think there's value in someone who can trust their intuition, who can be naturally talented at something, who can just be so maybe comfortable in their own skin and their capabilities that they can push themselves and be confident that they're going to be good.

which I guess could describe how I started. But that only gets you to good. And then to take you past that, I think that's when you really have to do the actual work, the step-by-step stuff. The things that Keith, when he was coaching me privately when I was racing, would make me do. Draw the track, write down my reference points, friggin' compare it to my split times. I'm not like that.

I'm not like you and Angus with your notes and your perfect underlined stuff and your, you know, everything documented. am not like that.

Told you

Speaker 1 (01:24:51.406)
I already know, I see it. But that pushed me really far out of my comfort zone to like actually have to put in the work. And yet that only gets you to a certain place as well. And there was this distinctive moment where I was trying to qualify for my first AMA race and there was 60, I think there was about 62 riders going for 44 spots on the grid. And I was way off pace. And I showed up as a total like, I got laughed.

practically off the racetrack as like this total amateur at the AMA track. And I was so stressed. was like, this can't happen. I can't fail. I can't not qualify. I need to find some time. And you know, we had practiced, I was working on this and I was adding reference points and I was working on wide view. And then I was improving my throttle control and we were doing the steps and then it came to qualifying and I was way off pace.

And I went out in the first session of qualifying and thought I was riding so fast. Like I came back in and I was like, I just called ass. I think I took two seconds off my time. I must have qualified like I am awesome. I must have done it. And they were like, you went slower. no. I just was like, what do you mean? It felt fast. I'm putting all this work in. What do I do? And I remember calling Keith and I said like, Keith, I got to qualify. What do I work on next? Like I got.

20 minutes to what do I work on? And he was like, you don't work on anything. You've done the work. There's no more. This is like cramming for a test. Like it's. There's no more space. He goes, remember why you like, remember why you're here? Because you love riding motorcycles. This is a this is your first AMA race. It's supposed to be fun. You have you know what to do. Now go out and let your body do it and ride. And I went out.

thinking those things, just ride, have fun, smile, laugh in your helmet. You've done all the hard work, you're doing your best, just do your best. And I went out and got into the zone and it felt so smooth and so everything and so perfect and so on point that it was slow. And I came in and went, it was a perfect lap, cause I hit every freaking point, but guaranteed I went slower. I don't think I qualified. And I sent my

Speaker 1 (01:27:15.542)
helpers down to check and sure enough, I made the 44th spot on the grid. I beat out a bunch of other riders for that place and that lap felt slow because everything was flowing visually as it should have. And it was the perfect lap. think the lesson there was like, there's a time and place to do the work. And then there's a time and place to now go, remember why you're here and just ride and to be able to find that zone, whether you're racing, cause there's

the goal and the outcome is different. So when I'm racing, the perfect lap is the one that's going to, you know, get me on the grid, get me the qualifying time, get me a good race result, give me a kick ass race. But on the flip side, you could have another ride where you're in the zone where it's just everything is smooth. You don't make mistakes.

You hit all your points, everything is fluid, you're not tense, you're not thinking about anything else. I think it's just something that we can all relate to is when you find that, whether you're mountain biking or dirt biking or motorcycle riding or skiing or whatever sport it is or whatever zone, yoga. I'm not very good at that either, but like whatever it is when you get in the zone and you are just in the moment doing the things without

conscious thought, that's the zone.

And it feels effortless. That's how it is to me.

Speaker 1 (01:28:44.622)
And this is I think the key, key, key thing, because people don't understand why I ride motorcycles and they say, oh, isn't it scary and isn't it so fast and isn't it all these things? And I say, no, actually the zone is when all of it goes quiet. My brain is always, but when I'm in the zone at 300 kilometers an hour, that's my only, that's the only place you are, you're in that moment.

And that's a very, very special place to be when you can be in the moment.

And that's great. I love that. Can you get yourself there on purpose? You know what mean? Or do you have like a process, a conscious process to get yourself there? Like for example, do you say to yourself, I want to get to this place by the end of the day. can you just, like, is it something that you know you can attain on a certain day? Is that what I'm saying? Is it predictable?

think that's the goal that you can make a predictable. don't think it always is. So I think extreme athletes, the best athletes in the world, the best racers, et cetera, can pull that on demand feeling because they've put in the work so many times. I think that's what distinguishes someone from like a great athlete to a good athlete is how easily you can put everything else aside to go, done the work.

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:30:09.772)
I've done this many track stands. I've done this many practice runs. I've done this much exercise. I've done this many pushups. I've done this many squats. Now's the time where all of that doesn't matter anymore. And I am going to do the job at hand. It's a continuum, right? Like wherever you are on that level of your ability. And I can do it sometimes, but holy cow, ask all the coaches at the school. They'll know that I have days where I don't feel like I can ride where shit and I'm this guy's too fast as me and this.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:38.772)
Join the club, man. Yeah, I don't think that has anything to do with being a coach. I mean, that's just totally I'm on board with you on that. But but because because we we love that feeling like I for but for me, I can't make it happen. I'm conscious of it. So I'll go to the track and, know, I know it's probably not going to happen on day one, probably probably not on day two. But then I wonder when I wake up in the morning or the night before, I wonder if I'm going to.

I wonder if I'm gonna get there today. It would be so great. I feel like I'm gonna feel so good I feel like I'm gonna get there today man, and so that's kind of for me. It's not It's not Terribly predictable, but I'm aware that it's there like I I do want it because it's so cool

I think that's ultimate, like we all want it. We all want that like in the zone. all want, I mean, I try to meditate sometimes and then I'm like, la la la la la, like, can I get there? Will I ever get enlightenment? Like we try, we can't, you know, but also I think, I haven't done enough work. You know, I meditate occasionally. I think it's half-assed, you know, I'm not, I don't study it. I don't have a meditation practice. So how do I expect that I'm going to attain enlightenment by like,

doing it a few times. I'm not. You have to put in the work. So I think there has to be a balance too with like how much work are you gonna put in versus how often you're riding, how easily you can put yourself in that zone of really thinking things like what Keith told me. Have fun with it. Well, can everyone just do that? Not necessarily. So I think it comes with a combination. You've done the work.

You've got the natural talent and your ability to focus your mind on the task at hand so that nothing else matters. It's got to include, I think, the whole bubble.

Speaker 2 (01:32:32.622)
That's pretty good, man. That's a good subject. We beat that one up pretty good, but it's so important. mean, mountain climbers, everybody can get it. All disciplines of sport can get it. Actually, to be honest with you, I think that's attainable in a business, like in a business deal. You go to a meeting with 25 people there and you're the dude. You should be sweating bullets and you walk out of the thing when you're done and you're like, you know what?

God, that went really, that just felt effortless. That just felt so good because I was prepared and I did all the work. That's the same.

But it has certain factors, Like you have a certain mindset, you've done some stuff ahead of time. And I think that's the biggest thing. I think a lot of people try to take the easy way out, myself included, when I was racing. Like, I'll just do the bare minimum. I'm naturally good. I ride pretty fast. Who needs to find real reference points? I'm just intuitive. Okay, well, that's only gonna get you to a certain level. To push beyond that is when you actually have to do the work.

Yeah, Okay, but now I want to go backwards because I want to see if I can convert you into a a into a what did you call me an Angus? Not a note taker, but whatever. what if because now we know how to steer, let's say everybody we know what you know, push left, go left, push right, go right. Now, one of your jobs today when you go out on the track, maybe before noon,

What did I call you?

Speaker 2 (01:34:09.614)
or maybe before the end of the day. But for every single corner, you figure out which corner you have to push the hardest on. And then when you have that, that's a 10. And then go grade each corner one to 10 for how hard you have to push. Right. So this is way beyond counter steering and thinking, you know, here, this is like, I know how to steer exactly. Now I'm to go out and analyze my steering. Right. But you can't do without writing it down.

So right, so now we got to be a little bit of a nerd and write number down on each corner. And what's the other thing we're going to write down with the pressure is the time. And then you have something to study because it's like, look at this. The one at the corner I push the hardest on isn't the least amount of time. And the corner that I push the longest on isn't the least amount of force that I'm pushing.

So now you have some metrics, you have stuff to stare at and study. And then biggest thing is, is now we have it to manipulate because you can take it to my coach and say, look, man, I have this. I'm having, if he, if you were to bring up, Hey man, you, you, you suck through turn four, you know, and we need to work on that. And here's what I think you need to work on. I pull up my little piece of paper and this is what I think I'm doing in turn four. Should I turn sooner or should I just push harder?

Or should I just push the same but longer? Like, here's what I think I'm doing in that corner. And dude, now we have this metric to talk about and also do it for braking. So now you're busy. Now we're super busy. Now we're obviously, you know, coming off the track, writing down steering stuff. And then the second half of the day, we're writing down braking stuff. You know, now we've got all these numbers and stuff we can look at. So I nerd out on that stuff, but it's there to be manipulated. I challenge you, Misty.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:36:02.51)
And I, okay, and I like, but what you keep saying is that then you can manipulate it. And so I think that's the really important distinction is that you have to start with something so that then you can change and manipulate it. So we talk about reference points and I'm like, they're like, I don't know where I turn. I say, don't really give a crap where you turn, just find something to come back and tell me so then we can decide, is it too certain, is it too late, is it too wide, is it too narrow, whatever.

come back with something because we can't make any adjustments if you're like, don't know where I turn and I don't know where I apex start with something so that then we can go there and manipulate it.

Yeah, and it's just so fun. It makes it so fun for me anyway. But I mean, if I were with one of my current, you know, guys, which is again, probably Johnny or James, those guys know they're writing so well. And I'm sure you do. mean, obviously you do too. We just haven't coached together in a long time, but I could take something like that to them. It's easy to understand, don't you think? And they could look at it and go, like I'm nowhere near that in that corner. Like that's not like.

your map is totally different than mine or your map looks pretty close to what I'm doing, but I do this over here. Like those guys know they're writing so well and you that you could take my map and look at it and say, mine's different. And that's a whole conversation that I would be interested in.

Because it will be because it makes sense for you, right? And also like so does your method of learning. So does your way of writing things down. And also this is important too is that you have to understand that some of your methods are going to be helpful in pushing you towards improvement on the track. And some maybe they might seem helpful initially, but they may actually hold you back a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:37:58.126)
So for example, and not to, you know, rip you and Angus apart whatsoever, you're proud to, and I've been your coach before, but sometimes like, I think the last time I coached Angus, I was giving him like, quit thinking so much. Like when he rides and sometimes you do as well, it's almost like you can see all the little things. Am I hitting the apex? Am I getting to my exact point? Am I getting there? And it's very,

You rip away, baby. You rip away.

Speaker 1 (01:38:27.564)
You know, did I do this, this, this, and this? And it's, it, it's like, can almost see the brains calculating, you know, all of the points and like, almost like you're note taking while you're writing. Great for certain moments. That's the foundation. That's when you're building. That's when you're in, you know, dating the patterns of improvement. However, if you constantly go out and ride with that same mindset,

Of course, yeah right.

Speaker 1 (01:38:55.394)
which sometimes it's hard to break out from, you end up getting stuck, always trying to fix something, always trying to make improvements, bettering, questioning, focusing, stressing, and it's too much. And so you never get to that moment where Keith Coase says, just ride. And sometimes those moments are then the biggest breakthrough moments. So there has to be a balance. I needed to be pushed more into the do the work category.

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:39:24.396)
because I didn't want to do the work and other people need to be pushed more into quit doing so much work and start just writing and make it less stressful. So there has to be a balance. This is what I think is really important. And and a theme of the book is like there's a balance between the fundamental and the skills and the training technique portion of the book and the storytelling background lighthearted part of the book.

because I think it allows heavy stuff to be absorbed, to give a different perspective on how maybe to absorb it. And then, you know, to, see a different perspective of how that, that improvement may show its light. Okay. For Misty, it shows up as the perfect lap at the end of the day, maybe, but it also shows up as watching her student have this huge successful breakthrough after hitting so many walls. Right. So

It's just looking at it from, I think, different perspective and understanding that improvement comes different aspects and not just one thing in particular.

Totally cool. get it. No, I think that's great. I think that's really good. think, well, when are you going to have the book done?

So ebook is going to be released by the end of March and then the printed copy will be in June this summer. I've just been doing all of that, finalizing, editing. Now I'm moving into design, production, all the fun stuff, legal stuff, copyright stuff, all this research I'm doing.

Speaker 2 (01:41:01.72)
Wow, copyright stuff. That's crazy. That's pretty awesome. How are you doing? Are you hanging in right now? I mean, the right now tonight, are you doing okay? Okay. Where's your microphone?

I have AirPods, but they're running out. So I'm going to have to switch. only gone to one. And then I can't add my computer.

Okay, because it fades out sometimes when you start talking and then it comes in.

Really? Well also because I like move a lot. Maybe. I'm like ADHD person. I've got my fidgets. Have you seen all my little fidgets? You barely move. You haven't moved at all. You're like.

I got him. I got him.

Speaker 2 (01:41:40.046)
I'm moving up here. I want to talk before I let you go. I want to talk more about just your perceptions of throttle control and line and braking. It's because they're wide open. But hey, I mean, do you want me to ask a more refined question? Like in other words, what is your I've told this story before, so I apologize to everybody.

I don't think questions there.

Speaker 2 (01:42:08.712)
Way back, maybe 15 years ago or something, I was going around Thunderhill and I bumped into Koby off track at lunchtime or something in passing. Are you still there? Yes. You look like you were frozen there for a second.

No, I was just like looking at something on the screen,

Yeah, and so in passing, Kobe said, hey, I saw you go through turn whatever and your throttle control was great. Good job. And I'm like, cool. Right. I'm like, that's awesome. I feel really good. And then I'm walking the same thing I'm talking about doing at the end of the day, like the just make sure you're being honest with yourself about what the coach said, what you said, what you saw. And so then I started thinking, what the hell does he mean?

I honestly said that to myself. Like I really want the compliment, but I don't understand what he's really complimenting me about. so please explain what is your definition or the commonly agreed to definition of throttle control, because it sounds so general.

And I mean, I think it is a general skill. I think it's a fundamental skill that could always be worked on. I think it's one of those things that, you you start with a beginner who needs the definition of throttle control, just simply to be like the process of rolling on and not rolling on as many beginners do like this, right? So you're gonna get from the very beginning,

Speaker 1 (01:43:42.274)
the explanation of good throttle control is going to be very, very basically whether it's coming on, cracking on and being rolled on, or if there's any errors with how that roll on is happening. Is it on and off? Is it wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, smash it on? Is it too aggressive? Is it not aggressive enough? What's going on with that particular application of the throttle? Because it is so important.

And so even within that realm, you've got so many different levels. How is a beginner using the throttle? All the things I just said, can we adjust and fix all of those? And then we do. So we take that rider from this hesitant throttle to a nice smooth roll-on, which is what I would typically define good throttle control as, a smooth controlled roll-on.

or Keith Codes rule number one. Once it's cracked on, roll on smoothly, evenly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn.

I was gonna say that with you, but you just you just came so fast

There you go. Good throttle control. Now, now how do you necessarily take that and apply that to someone at the Thomas Luthy, you know, pro rider, pro racer level? They're not making mistakes like this. It's not about how, you know, they're going to smooth out the roll on. Now you're talking about these minute little details about how is he going to go from to

Speaker 2 (01:45:16.248)
Mm-hmm.

little motion, how are we going to get full pinned slightly sooner? Are you getting to full pinned? Where is that occurring? There's so many levels of throttle control, you know, and then you get into like, okay, now how are you rolling off the gas? How are you modulating or, you know, opening and closing your line with good throttle control?

all these fine tuning little details of, now you've got good throttle control. Now you've got a good drive. How do we get a better drive? How do we get, you know, you using more of the racetrack? How do we get you not hesitating in that moment and getting a stronger roll on? there's, again, it's this continuing line from the very beginning. How do we improve it? But all the way up to

All of us, coaches still, we're always looking for that. How can I get that little bit of extra to out drive, out push?

Ain't that the truth though, man? Ain't that the truth? Every coach, you could get on that. Just you could get on that. Do you think you could get on that a little earlier? Do you think you could get on that a little? Could you think you could hold that on a little longer? Minute. That was a really, really good explanation. And what it really means is I should have just asked Kobe what he meant. Right. Because it could have been anything. But I'll take a compliment, man. So.

Speaker 2 (01:46:42.668)
That's really, really good. I love that. That was a good explanation, Okay. So, do you have a definition of a good line? And my gosh, maybe it's related to something we just talked about. I don't know. But what's your definition of a good line?

Well, again, I would say, you know, a good line is one that allows you to apply the throttle as it's intended. So if you have a good line, it's going to allow the throttle to come on and be applied with that roll on.

that we're all looking for. A crappy line is not necessarily going to allow that or you're gonna have to make adjustments midway. So absolutely, I think, you know, they go hand in hand, but a good line is going to be one that allows good throttle application, you know, is predictable, is something that you can repeat. And then again,

you know, you're going to have that definition is on a continuum. So a good line for a beginner is going to be one that gets them through, you know, safely while being able to see the cars and not cross the center line, right? But then you've got, you know, AMA racers or Thomas Luthier or whatever. And now we're talking about good line as in using up every single inch of the racetrack so you can maximize your drive.

It's going to be, well, what is a good line for defending your position if you're in front of someone who's trying to get by? Yeah. Because now you apply, you know, those concepts to a race scenario. Well, this is a good story. You'll like this one. Because you know James Toohey so well. So here is a great, great, great explanation of this. There was one year way back when that, James, myself and another

Speaker 2 (01:48:27.918)
Bring it on!

Speaker 1 (01:48:39.822)
CSS coach Paul were gifted a race school. And so we got to participate in the race school at Streets of Willow as if we were students along with every other student. And so we do the day. It was awesome for me because normally as a coach, I have a very strict rule of like how fast I'll ride, how much I'll push myself. Up until that point,

Rules? did you say? Strict rules? Okay. Just checking. I'm just checking.

About that and to up until that point, many of the coaches hadn't seen sort of like, say like there's race Misty and coach Misty and you know, race Misty is much more willing like the flag drops and it's game on and I am willing to put a hundred percent down to win the race because now you got the

Yeah, games on. The game is on,

So I had an awesome time being a student, working on my skills. Kobe was actually my coach one of the days, or even both of the days, can't remember. Anyway, came to the mock race, or the race at the end. So now you've got myself, James Toohey, and we all qualified at the front, which was good. And up until this point, James was a coach before me. He is always...

Speaker 1 (01:49:58.124)
been faster than me. There was no question about that. He has always been faster than me. Had been, until that point.

okay. We're talking.

Anyway, okay. So anyway, I used to get really really good starts. We go we have this race There's the three Super Break School coaches on the starting line the rest of the students at the back the race starts and I get a kick-ass and I get in front of James on the start and I know that There is no way I'm gonna beat James unless he stays behind me from that moment on which was basically the first corner of that race I was like

I am going to run the most defensive, clamming, impossible to pass lines that I've ever run because I need to keep James Toohey behind me because if he gets in front of me, he's going to beat me. And from that moment on, it was one of the most fun races and the most defensive lines I've ever written in my entire life to keep James behind me where I could, I swear to God, almost hear him.

Ha

Speaker 1 (01:51:04.046)
Reaming in his helmet as he tried to pass in a few places. I could not get by because I was like, No way. Not a chance. Yeah. Then behind me, the entire race, he passed me on the skid pad, go onto the straightaway and I passed him immediately back.

This is at Streets.

Speaker 2 (01:51:16.718)
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:51:25.838)
And how, wait, wait, wait, where did he, you gotta give me more definition there. Were you low and he was high?

I was trying to take the low line.

block to block you would have done that. Yeah. Yeah.

lock on the skid pad and let me honestly, this was like 2006. I can't see the exact details. Somehow he got by in part of the skid pad, but ran a bit wide and I was able to out drive or I just got him at the back of into turn one or somehow I just got him back the whole point. I kept him behind me the entire race and finished in front of him. And to this

day forward, it is the most defensive race I've ever ridden. And it's a good testament to my next book, which is going to include all aspects of racing, track days, and then my favorite, which is exactly what I was just talking about, which is race strategy, which is how do you alter your lines, your strategy, your plan based on who your competitor is?

Speaker 2 (01:52:31.694)
Great. I love that. Love it. Yeah.

Goodbye. I'm gonna make it really hard.

That's so good. So James, what's up? You're my man. Missy's over here telling me this story. I have a story about James too. really, really quick related to the throttle control. So we were having a blast one day and of course, you know how James talks to me. He's not polite and he is so good at getting on the gas. I mean, all of you guys are.

be had.

Speaker 2 (01:53:07.51)
you're just all so good at getting on the gas. I mean, this dude, this dude is fucking I don't know what you what do you want to call it? I don't know. It's not hard to believe. But anyway, so I'm like, dude, I just can't, you know, I can kind of, you know, when you're not trying really hard, I can kind of hang, you know, except for like, when you come out on the straight, I just can't do it. How are you getting on the gas so soon?

He literally said, you need to get on it as early as you can without fucking it up. And I'm like, wait, okay. What do you mean by that? Right. And so I made a, I made a t-shirt with a motorcycle on it, like right there, like, like a motorcycle on the t-shirt like that. And it said as early as you can without fucking it up. And I made like, I made like five of them. It's so totally true, but

I literally made him explain to me, what do you mean by fucking it up? Like, what am I going to, what, what, tell me, like, what do mean by that? And that was really fun. Cause I made him explain that. So this is how we're having fun with throttle control and coaching and being a student and all that kind of stuff at the racetrack. and based on your, your little race story here, I also want to ask you about, my God, this is going to be two parter for sure. Sorry.

How do people like this is a long time already

Well, it's going to be two parts I can guarantee you already and look if I'm in my van driving to somewhere for a racetrack or whatever I can listen to hours. So Angus just put the work in there's nothing to edit. There's nothing to just cut it in the middle print. So, um, uh, gosh, what was I going to say? Um, oh,

Speaker 1 (01:54:45.966)
Go.

Speaker 1 (01:54:52.632)
James's little race story.

Yeah, the story about James. So I want to talk to you about breaking. I also want to talk to you about, line, how do you, how do you visualize, how do you explain, like if I was a racer and you had to explain to me how to pick, maybe I want to ask you a different way. This is the way I said it to James. If I was your nephew or your son and I was driving to the racetrack, it's last minute. got an hour ago and I call my aunt Misty and I say,

I just want to have a safe day. want to make sure I can load my bike back into the trailer at the end of the day in one piece like it looks like I didn't even ride it except for the tires are melted. Okay. What give me your five seconds, you know, um, dissertation on what is it I'm going to do today when I get to the racetrack? I'm trying to, that's a big question, but what my specific part is a part of that answer is going to relate to the lines. I'm thinking it would for me.

What would you tell your nephew or your son about what line to ride if you want to look at it that way or how to interpret the line? Are you going to say ride this line, ride that line? I don't put words in your mouth, so just tell me what you think.

Okay, so are they just going to a track day or are they going to the school?

Speaker 2 (01:56:10.412)
No, just a track day. Just a track day. want to have fun. They want to come out alive, no broken bones, and they want to be safe and fast. know, maximize safety, maximize speed.

Right, okay. So typically what I would focus on is the idea of having some reference points and hello.

I'm listening, I'm nephew, I'm listening.

And, and, making those repeatable. and so what I mean by that is, is when, like, I feel like this is really good for learning a new track fast. The quickest way you're going to learn a racetrack, if you show up at a, at a new racetrack is to, you know, each session out to go out and to find another point on the racetrack that tells you what to do. Right. So, so basically.

as well.

Speaker 1 (01:57:03.95)
You know, I show up at a racetrack I've never ridden before. go to Phillip Island. have students coming shortly. I've never seen the track before. I jump in a rental car. do one lap of the track. I have to learn it very fast. What do I do? I start by figuring out what reference points can I pick up quickly? Typically they're the apexes that I focus on first. And then I'll move backwards and forwards from there to say, okay.

This is the apex point that I think I want to achieve. That's what I'm gonna remember. I'm gonna go back and write that in my notes.

More writing. Like Rick and Angus writing?

Yes, because this is what Keith made me do when I was learning new track by myself. track map. No, nothing. I had to draw it from memory and then, okay, I think the apex is like the middle of this rumple strip. think there's a dark patching and write that down. And then each session after that coming back and adding something else to that. Okay. So yes, absolutely. The dark patch is the apex. And I noticed that in order to get there, you know, where I was turning.

Okay, I'm just checking. Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:58:12.236)
was around here, it's where the track enters and there's a cone. So I'm write that down. Cool. You put those down as starting points. Then as the day progresses, you add more, you change it, you adapt it, you manipulate it, just like you said, to how that is influencing your line. Okay, well did that apex put you on the exit that you wanted? No, it didn't. It was too early, too late, too whatever. Let's adjust it.

So Aunt Misty, what line am I looking to achieve here that's relative to these points? What do mean?

Good point. So we had, and again, this would be tricky to do on just a phone call with.

That's why I'm making it tricky, baby!

But we're going to want to start to say, okay, how does that tie into your throttle control? you've, you've put these, you know, you've got a rough idea. You want to go outside, inside, outside, sort of turn in apex exit. How is that influencing your throttle control?

Speaker 2 (01:59:13.991)
OK, hang on. Let me outside. You said it so fast. What did you just say outside inside what side?

outside, inside, outside.

Speaker 1 (01:59:25.934)
I wide, low, wide, sure, wide, low, wide might work.

Okay, but outside, inside, outside. So I'm coming into the corner on the outside. Generally speaking.

So just as if you're riding on the street, right? You kind of want to approach a corner. You're sort of on the outside edge of the track. You want to give yourself some visual space. You want to see where you want to go next. Typically that brings you a little bit more to the inside and then you use a little bit more of the track slash road coming out on the outside.

If this isn't a race, is there any reason for me to be in the middle of the track? Like why are you just defaulting to outside?

outside, inside, outside, technically speaking, you want to be able to get that nice throttle roll on and use a little bit more of the track because that's going to help you straighten out the lines. So again, that could be a goal. And I think there's what you're going for is you want to straighten out the lines on the racetrack.

Speaker 2 (02:00:28.142)
Okay, so that's awesome Misty and Misty I think I can do that. What did you say? Wide? Side outside Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so outside inside outside which definitely means not in the middle of the track and definitely not low on the track on the outside of the track Maybe near the paint if there's paint

So that could be, you know, and then you could start walking through like, you know, and this is typically what I have to do with a lot of the students that show up at the track that don't know, you know, they're like, well, why aren't I just riding around the middle of the track? You know, why do I need to straighten this out? And to track riders that ride at a slower pace, it can seem really confusing why they would want to be pushing out. And it seems like a long distance to go.

it doesn't necessarily make sense. So that's all the education part of it, right? Like it's, you know, it's hard to sort of pretend you're on the phone with someone, but that's where I would start is just to say like, you know, pick some points, try to remember, you know, obviously whether the term goes left or right or left and left and then right again, whatever, but you wanna start making it repeatable and in a way that you can remember what's coming next.

And then the next point that I would say, especially for track riders, is to notice any time you're making mistakes and not let yourself get away with it. This I think is really huge is that many times track riders, racers, even riding on the road, they'll go and they know when they come into a corner too hot or they scare the shit out of themselves or they run wide in a corner and they go, yikes, know, whoopsies. Well, then if they do it again,

That's when I say, guys, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, one mistake that you got okay with, especially on the road, you ran wide and you didn't hit an oncoming car, great. Don't do it ever again. That's your warning. You made a mistake. Figure out what you need to do not make it happen again.

Speaker 2 (02:02:39.49)
That's a really good example analogy. That's a really good one. Like if you were on the road and you almost hit an oncoming car, you would instantly reflect on why that happened and you would fix it. Most people would.

Okay, so now you apply that to you just ran wide on the racetrack or you ran off and you think it's no big deal. You're like, no big deal. I just ran off. Well, hang on a sec. Is this a normal occurrence? You just run off the road when you're driving to Starbucks? No, you don't do that. It's a red flag. So if you're running wide at the racetrack, make a note of it and say, oopsies, I just ran wide. Don't do that again. If you run wide again.

In the very next corner have a word with yourself say one mistake is is fine It's not I mean it's fine because then you can take it and learn from it two mistakes or multiple mistakes is when Now you're in danger territory and you're gonna end up crashing or you're gonna make mistakes that are unrecoverable from Because you're not paying attention to the cues that you're getting right so as a coach if I'm behind you and I see you

run super wide, but you shake your head, you obviously know you did it, you slow down and you immediately get back on track and seem like you've got a handle on things, I'm gonna let that one go, okay? If it's not mind-blowingly dangerous because I'm like, okay, he got it, he's making adjustments, he knows the mistake, we're gonna talk about this during debrief. But if you blow it wide and barely shake your head and act like it's no big deal,

and then run wide in the next corner or blow a third corner somewhere. That's it. I'm getting in front of you. I'm pulling you in right away. I'm going, Hey, hey man, what's going on? You've made a couple of mistakes. You're not seeming to, you know, notice them. Let's reset. Let's figure out what's going on and make sure those don't happen again. So that's what I would tell track riders is if you make an error, you blow turn one and have to run off the

Speaker 1 (02:04:49.484)
You know, run off the edge of the track. Great. You stayed upright. You're safe. You're fine. Now go back and use that information to make sure you don't make those mistakes again. Don't do it over and over again.

Okay, so.

There's a plethora of reasons why that would be happening, but that's a really good example. So just for the listeners, they're going to be like, okay, give me two of the most common reasons people run wide.

One, because they target fixate on the outside edge of the track and they're nervous about it. Two, they've gotten on the gas too soon and like too early and too hard for the corner and it's pushed them wide.

Perfect. Yeah, it could be many different things, but that's really good too. And then what does target fixate mean?

Speaker 1 (02:05:38.624)
It means losing the visual awareness around you and sort of panic focusing on what you don't want to hit. So people will come up, they feel like they're ready for the corner and then their eyes see the guardrail on the outside edge. go, you don't want to hit the guardrail? Their vision narrows and the bike goes to the guardrail.

Right where they're looking. Right where they're looking, yeah. Those are good. Those are two good ones,

noticing in those moments when your vision goes, crap, the guardrail is there. But now knowing and having the skills and the ability to go, ain't gonna let it get me. I need to go over there. There I'm going. And let me tell you how cool it is to be able to save yourself in those moments and to realize that you saved yourself because you knew what to do.

After I became a coach, I saved myself from a few potential crashes that would have been crashes or running off the track or major screw ups beforehand. But because I knew exactly what to do and could halt the survival reaction, it happened like it wanted to. My hand wanted to chop the throttle when the rear was sliding or I wanted to target fixate, but I was able to go, no, and

And that's so powerful. It's so powerful to go, I just didn't high side because I knew what to do. But all those other times I high sided because I didn't know what to do. It's super powerful when you're like what I just learned and what I know I was able to implement when I needed to to save a crash or an error.

Speaker 2 (02:07:12.814)
That's cool.

Speaker 2 (02:07:26.382)
powerful an overflowing toolbox is Priceless. Yeah, that's pretty cool. really one quick point on the on the high low high Just to just to finish that off. I don't want to I don't want to skip this I don't want to skip it for the for the listeners more lean or less lean

Well, I think the goal is to be able to get around a corner with as little lean angle as possible because it just allows you to then have more margin for being able to go faster.

Okay, wait. okay. Let's not blend that so quickly. Okay. So it's safer because it's less lean, it's straighter, therefore less lean, therefore safer. But what comes with that, right, is you just said it. I just want to make sure we clearly is now we can go faster. It seems obvious, but it's not obvious to everyone.

Wait a sec, what are you

Speaker 1 (02:08:18.104)
Yeah, that's the whole reason.

Speaker 2 (02:08:23.212)
Like you can ride, if you had to set the lap record and there were no other riders on the track, you would ride the high line. Absolutely. Right? Yeah. You would ride the line that, that uses more track that confuses a lot of people. So we don't need to be riding in the middle of the track or down low on the track. If you're going to go to a track day, just ride the high line all day, unless you to be passing.

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (02:08:49.932)
You can say, you know, when you watch MotoGP, how much of the track do those guys use? Right? every inch of the track. Why? So that they can go as fast as they possibly can. Same with, you know, why do they hang off so far? Well, so they can use as little lean angle as possible. And this is in the book as well, because when I first started riding, I thought I was hot shit because I scraped the pegs on my bike.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:09:17.208)
I was leaning the crap over it out of it and all we wanted to do was never have chicken strips, right? And that was a huge thing. Like, I don't have any chicken. I leaned the, I leaned my bike over as far as it could go.

It still is for a lot of people.

I'm like, that was the stupidest thing I was thinking of. Like how outrageous is that? That I wanted to use as much lean angle as possible on the street. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And so now I would actually rather be the rider in the group that had, you know, big chicken strips and yet could go out and ride the fastest and be like, well, I have all this space left in this margin of safety that if I want to go faster,

or need to lean over more, I totally can. Y'all that are riding on the edge of your tires, you can't. Just like stupid old me when I thought I was hot shit scraping the pegs. Like how dumb was

Yeah, that's so true and man I've seen and I know that you've seen people that are actually Concerned about that at the racetrack like literally making it an objective to scuff their knee pucks and Make sure they don't have chicken strips and make sure that they can touch their knee if they're in you know That group of people and so we're here to say that that's all ridiculous

Speaker 2 (02:10:39.264)
Right? I mean, we need to put that out. I mean, we need to take it, take the opportunity to put that out there. It's like, if you're riding the high line at your favorite racetrack and you're dragging your knee, you're doing pretty good. Just be happy with that. You know, I'm not a knee dragger, so I just pick it up. So I don't have scuffed up pucks. Right. So I don't have anything to brag about, but what about you? Do you drag your knee much?

Well, yeah, I mean, not I would say I wouldn't say much because no, like I can get around the racetrack a lot without dragging me. But yeah, for sure. There comes a time when, you know, when I want to go as fast as I can go, the knee hits down occasionally here and there where required. Side story. bought these wicked wooden knee pucks when I was in Germany. I'd never heard of them. They're wooden.

my God.

and I was riding the saxophone and I put on these cool wooden knee pucks and then was literally out the next like session dragging knee and I was like, I was like campfire and it totally did. It was these wooden pucks like and they don't have them my leather's handy but they've lasted so long and they're so cool because they're these thick wooden and

Hahaha

Speaker 2 (02:11:55.924)
Interesting. they gotta get a little charcoal going.

Also, that's a good point too, because I had a student once that he like, basically came up to me he's like, I want you to teach me to drag my knee. And I was like, God, here we go. And so immediately I just said like, okay, why? And then he got all like ruffled and was like, wow, well, cause it's cool. Cause it's this, cause that I was like, okay, but what's the actual reasoning? What's the whole point? And he didn't even know the whole point. He didn't know the factors that influence, you know, whether you're going to get your knee down.

or not. And there's a big misunderstanding there. And I said, listen, like, I really want you to shelve that whole idea because getting your knee down is actually a product of doing all the other things correctly. And you quit focusing on that and do the techniques right, it will go down when it's needed. And sure enough, after really convincing this guy, and it was hard to

let the attention off that. He went up and down on the whole like, I'm getting better, no I'm not, I wanna drag my knee, I'm trying to listen to my coach. And finally when he let all of it go, he crushed it and right at the end of the day, his knee touched down absolutely naturally just as I told him and he was, I was like, there you go, see? You quit trying and then it happened because it was meant to because you were doing all the other things correctly as well.

Right, right. And you weren't hanging your body ridiculously off the bike just so you could get your knee to touch the ground. I think that's, I just, never start, stop harping because we have voices here. So I never stopped harping on the agenda. Some people bring to the racetrack, you know, we should all be going to the racetrack, have fun and be safe. And we don't need to be closing, passing close. We don't need to be, you know,

Speaker 2 (02:13:51.21)
expecting people to think that we're cool and fast and whatever a lot of these dudes, it's mostly dudes, think that they need to be. There's just too many mental agendas coming to the racetracks. And I think people should just, you you're not impressing anybody, man. You're not. Those of us who have, I'm 60, so I've met a lot of riders and I'm not impressed. Like I already said.

You know, so we just need to go to the racetrack and ride our ride, man. Just ride and try to be safe. Don't you think? Man, that makes me think of a really quick story. You want a quick one? It's very recent. Tim and I were at the race school this year and there was a guy, I don't even know his name, so I don't need to worry about sporting it out. That was in the paddock right next to us and he was a young guy and he was just all about, you know, riding when the day started.

and trying to basically convince us already verbally how good of a writer he was. to, you know, so here's the message to you guys out there. Like you're not fooling anybody with your words. And even if you are fast on the track, it just doesn't, nobody cares. So he goes, so it's lunchtime and I'm sitting there waiting for Lyle. Lyle's a coach and this, I saw this kid in Lyle's area.

talking to another student and they were talking about one of the turns. This is running streets backwards. I don't know if I could. Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. And he was talking about how he was taking this corner late, apexing one of the corners. And we were all learning the track because it was new to all of us, this backwards thing. And so it was all new to all of us. And there was a lot of chit chat about the line. And this guy was like, you know, he was late twenties, maybe.

you know, kind of a built dude, you know, very confident. And, you know, he was insisting with this other guy he was talking to that he wanted to late apex this one corner. And I just couldn't resist, man. And so I said, Hey, look, man, you know, I don't need I don't mean to butt in, but I really do think that that's not right. And you should talk to Lyle about it, because he was standing in Lyle's area. And he didn't end up being Lyle's student. He was Steve's student.

Speaker 2 (02:16:13.294)
And so anyway, after lunch first session, he goes out and crashes in the next corner because that's what the corner that's going to get fucked up if you late apex the one he was late apexing. And he broke his collarbone. shoot. Yeah. And was pretending like it wasn't broken. And why am I telling this story? I just think that he came. He came to the racetrack with an agenda and nothing to back it up. And on top of that, nobody

cared if he could back it up. That's my point. let's guys, let's go to the racetrack without thinking that we need to prove our manhood to anybody and just have a good time and listen to aunt Misty what she's telling you on this phone call. Just do that as a minimum, right? And if you have a coach, don't argue with another student about if you want to late apex a corner, argue with your coach about it.

Well, that's that's what's always so fascinating to me is like, especially because of the cost of, know, like the schools and coaching and track days in general is like you paid all this money to come to learn. And now you're being resistant to learning. Like, I just don't get it. And.

There's been some students where I've been like fine like okay if if you think you know everything then don't have me as your coach like why are you even here if there's such resistance like I don't need this to be this difficult if you want to learn I will help you if you don't like I don't understand why you're here so I think that is really important and I think it's it's it's eye-opening and that was you know my son did come to the school and and those were some things I told him I was like listen

Nobody. You're a good rider. You're a naturally talented, good, fast kid. But you're 16 years old and you've never been on a big racetrack and you've certainly never been on this big motorcycle before. And you're

Speaker 2 (02:18:14.157)
What was it? One of the BMWs? Okay, so cool,

I don't

terrified, but I also trust him because I've coached him since he was four years old to say like I was just really adamant like you're here to be a good coach. Nobody gives a shit how fast you are. I know you'll be a good reasonably quick rider, but nobody cares. So your job is to be a really good student and I actually picked James to be his coach.

Wow, really? That's interesting. Why?

you know, I've known James for 20, it's 2003.

Speaker 2 (02:18:53.966)
Okay, okay, okay, so he's family he's like uncle James

Yeah, I mean, James is family, you know, now like I'm, you know, in a wonderful position that I get to choose from the world's best coaches who's going to work with my son. And there was, you know, really good candidates, obviously. But it was just, I think the right combination of, you know, James's methods, his a little bit more sort of chill attitude, just knowing my kid well enough to think what would be.

the right combination and it worked brilliantly. I think it was a really good pairing. I was super impressed with my kid.

He obviously did well.

in his ability to be a good student was the biggest thing. was like, if all else, like be a good, and he did. And that was mainly all I could ask for. And then the fact that I was able to pop out and film him for the last two laps of the last two days in the spectacularness that it was, it was phenomenal. And I'm so happy that I have that video, cause that's like a mom.

Speaker 1 (02:20:04.352)
memory for the rest of

Dude, does he understand? Does he understand mom? No.

Because I'm just mom, I'm irritating. You're just so irritating, mom. You're so annoying. And I'm like, I really don't think you realize that most moms don't teach their kid at four years old how to ride a motorcycle and then take them at 16 to the ridge and let them ride a S-

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:20:28.02)
Or teach other people all around the world how to ride on a racetrack.

But he doesn't care about any of that. Like I'm just his mom. And then he was irritated like, you're holding me back because this is a big bike and like, you're worried and you don't want me to do this. And I'm like, OK, you'll understand when you have your own kids.

Listen to your mom, kiddo. She knows.

I was so proud of him, also like I was sitting. So I was sitting on the, um, the last turn there waiting. Um, and I could see him coming around and I was like, Oh sick, sweet. But I hadn't written with him the whole two days. So I knew he would go quick, but I didn't know at what pace he was going. And so I click record and then he goes by, you know, and it's tricky because you have to wait for them to go by. by the time he goes by, you know, he's now clicking into friggin third gear.

And I'm at a dead stop to go for a second, third, like going down the straightaway going like, I am not catching my son, closing the gap. And as I was coming into turn one full pinned and I'd been pushing my own self to go faster into turn one. So I was watching the speedo. I don't advise this for other students don't do this, but I was.

Speaker 2 (02:21:31.807)
nice.

Speaker 2 (02:21:47.982)
That's funny. That's so funny.

And so like, knew that like, I was so stoked cause I'd seen 164 miles an hour going into turn one. And so like my gauge was like, how can I beat 164 into turn one? And so now here I am chasing my freaking 16 year old son into turn one and we're going in at 160 miles an hour. And I'm going like, am not ready to be following my 16 year old child into turn one at 160 miles an hour.

And yet at the same token, was like equally proud and equally terrified and like dressed about like closing the gap and just being with him. But then also just like, this is my kid, man. So it was the weirdest thing. just, I was so proud. I was so happy. We had this incredible like, he passed. He did all these things. I was like, this is unbelievable.

That's just magical.

Speaker 2 (02:22:43.022)
What did he learn how to do with do you guys does he ride you having a ride on a racetrack at home?

Oh yeah, okay. So the kid has been riding and racing since he was four years old. He PW50 at four years old. Um, you know, then at six years old, he rode, he raced that PW50, um, with little tiny six year olds on a little track. And so he raced, you know, six, seven, eight, nine on a little PW50 and then a little DRZ 70. And then, you know, at 10 years old, he moved up. There was a

Okay, okay,

Speaker 1 (02:23:17.39)
a space, you know, he had dirt bikes. But anyway, we get to 16 years old and the kids been racing many bikes. He's, he's raced to 250. He's raced on all sorts of go-kart tracks, O'Valley's. He's also ridden, you know, 450 motocross bikes and can fricking pass me in the air. Flat track, he's trained in Spain. Like the kids, he's ridden. and he's, he's fast.

Okay.

Man, I want to ride with them. What are you talking about? This sounds like fun.

you guys would have a blast. So we do some more. He and like, okay, imagine being I started riding at 24 years old. So here's my kid. He's 16 years old. 12 years of riding experience, 12 years of riding experience already on all of those bikes. The skill level that this kid has is unbelievable. And and

That's super cool.

Speaker 1 (02:24:13.494)
So it all fit with that sort of gradient of like, he's ready. It was terrifying, but I knew and I trusted him and I knew he was with James at the school. It was the perfect combination.

That's super cool, man. That's a great story. I'm so happy for you. I mean, that's just really cool. I mean, how well that's just so neat to be apparent his parent, but you're the one he came out of too. So that's even better. It's just like your kid was flying around a racetrack. Yeah, that would be, that would be scary, but cool. But you trusted him. That's awesome.

Yeah, he's absorbed a lot listening to me. And this is, this I think is the most powerful piece. This is really cool. As much as kids and especially teenagers are kind of like, you never think they're listening. They don't really, they're not thanking. He's not thanking me for all my instruction on motorcycle stuff. He acts like he doesn't listen to me all the time. Right? A lot of the stuff I say, try to teach him. It seems like it's going right through his ear. Then.

Then one day we were at the mini go-kart track and this kid who was a dirt biker had never ridden on the street before and he wanted to go out on track. And so I said, Ashton, suit up, take this kid out on track, lead him carefully, make sure you set the pace well, don't let him go too fast, show him the lines. My son went out, so he would have been probably like 12, the other kid maybe nine. Ashton went out and led this kid.

as if he was like a professional coach. was. He took him out, know, shoulder check before he goes onto the track. Follow me. Perfect. You know, nice, slow. He's showing him a little bit of the lines, not too much stuff going on. He starts to bring the pace up a little bit. They do a couple of laps. Then all of sudden Ashton's like waving him by. Go ahead. Awesome. by. Miss judges the corner, goes in too quickly. I'm going.

Speaker 2 (02:25:47.935)
okay.

Speaker 1 (02:26:13.368)
from the sidelines. no, no, no. Ashton sees it. He goes, he lets the kid run a little wide. He goes right in front of him. He goes, slow down, follow me. Leads him for another lap at a slower pace. Then as the corner approaches, he waves him by, but he goes, careful. I'm, what's really happening? He's being a coach. How does he know how to do that? Setting the pace. He's being responsible.

Wow

Speaker 1 (02:26:39.374)
and he was able to communicate so many of the things that he's just heard me say at the track and and that I didn't know he was absorbing until all of a sudden he turns around and he's like telling this other kid and I'm going huh okay they do listen to a few things here and

That's pretty cool. That's great. That's a really good story. Dang. don't even know him and I'm proud of him. But I don't know him. mean, I know him well enough to break bread or something, but I don't really.

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (02:27:12.878)
You guys would get along, I think you would. So anyway, I'm on the back with Troy Courser and like I just said, he changes gears into first gear before when I was riding by myself, I was changing into second gear. So I'm on the back with him. First of all, I was like, in my helmet. Like we were going so, it was wild. It was amazing. I basically, come in, he was wheeling down the straight with me, all this stuff.

We come in and I like slide off the bike. I'm like shaking. I'm like, holy shit, that was insane. What the hell? That was amazing. And with this whole new awareness of like, wow, there was two of us. And when we went into that series of corners, it didn't feel like we had any extra weight on that front tire. And there was zero worry from me about how well that front was going to stick. Like there was no risk whatsoever. It was like, that thing was planted. What the hell?

And so we had this really good conversation afterwards about his philosophy of braking. And it was very much like he said, I brake sooner, softer, longer. So he initiates the braking a little sooner. So like I was saying earlier, that tendency to like, late brakes, smash on the brakes, er, er, er, and go. He's like, no, he initiates it much sooner, but softer.

Speaker 2 (02:28:32.878)
But he's also slamming down in the first gear.

Exactly. So that combined with first gear sooner, it was like tightening the drive chain, pulling the like tightening it. That pulls it down, like some tension. The bike pulls down and like almost squats and just got so much more stable. And then he carried this trailing a little bit longer and softer. So there was less, there was less of that forward.

weight transfer onto the front, straining that front tire, and it was all just, whoo. So putting that combination together really changed my riding and was one of the, think, most helpful in terms of getting me much more comfortable in trail breaking in general. Because before that, it had always just felt so unpredictable and sketchy because I didn't have that sense of front feel.

It felt like there was just always too much and it was too flighty. And by adding the...

there might there might have been like it was that's a real that's real though. So he's taking load he's taking load off the front is what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (02:29:41.08)
Guaranteed.

Speaker 1 (02:29:46.434)
Yeah, but it was so much more obvious than having someone tell you or try to coach you through it or work with you on it because I was on the back with him feeling all of it being done. And it was just like, it was so obvious. And so he had even said that. He said, I'll teach you more. This is gonna teach you more on three laps on the back of the bike with me than my entire school. And I thought, no way. And then I was like, actually,

I just learned more from you. Riding on the back because of that. It was really, really cool to feel that, but also terrifying to have to let go of that sense of.

Wow.

Speaker 2 (02:30:28.396)
Hey, like Tony Elias says, if you don't have a turtle head sticking out, then you ain't learning anything.

I had some turtle heads. Holy. So I was fine. I didn't scream. This is a funny story too. didn't. There's a video on my website of this. So I get on the back with Troy and I'm like, Oh God, I was like so terrified because I'm not a good passenger. And that scares the shit out of me. And I'm like, I'm going to do this. I'm not going to scream. I'm going to be such a good passenger. He's going to be so impressed with me. So we do two laps. I don't scream. I'm all like, I got it. I'm leaning with it. I'm doing all this stuff.

We're even wheeling down the back and I'm not screaming. We go into the third lap and we're going down the straight heading towards turn one. We're on one wheel. We set it down and somebody decides they think it's cool that they're gonna pass Troy Corser going into turn one. Another quick rider on the track. So Troy sets it down. There's me on the back and there's a guy, a coach filming us. And then this rider goes by Troy. And all of sudden Troy's obviously a racer.

Yeah, right. All of sudden. Game on.

feel him tense up and I just feel him go like, uh-uh. And we're going into turn one and all of a sudden, and he hadn't done this the whole time, he uses the rear brake. And so all of a sudden we just go pitching fricking sideways and I green.

Speaker 1 (02:31:53.762)
Sideways and then we just go taking off and I can tell Troy's like pissed. Nobody passes me I'm getting that guy back and I'm going like I think he forgets that I'm on the back. Yeah I'm here and I'm too scared and I'm holding on like this and he just he's seeing this guy down and we are passing people like this and sure enough he gets the guy back and I'm just like I think he's completely forgotten that I'm on the back here. Anyway, the video's hilarious. We pull in

Exactly

Speaker 1 (02:32:22.304)
and you just see me I'm like screaming. He's going, you are such a good passenger. You are like a little backpack until you started screaming.

Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:32:31.95)
That's awesome. That's so what bike was that? What are you riding? No shit. No shit. Okay.

He was on an S1000.

They do the schools and the S 1000 as well. he, so he came out in the second session and was like leading me around showing me like 8,000 things to do. And I'm going like, I don't even know if the track goes left or right. And you're like pointing out all this stuff. He was showing me all the gears, reference points. And I'm just going like, this is too overwhelming. And so his style of coaching was much more like, this is what I do.

works for me. These are my reference points. And it was fascinating to like, sort of stand up and go head to head with with him and his team of coaches and sort of see what we agreed on and what we may be disagreed on and to just get lost in this whole conversation of like motorcycle skills and skills training and different ways of coming about it and different ways of teaching the

maybe similar techniques, but with different focuses and methods of how they teach it, if that makes

Speaker 2 (02:33:41.994)
Which I would say, in my experience, I would say that it's more, it's not as refined at all as like the Superbike school. Those guys are just basically, you know, what you just said. Like, this is how I do it. And this is what you should do here because that's the way I do it. And, you know, they're right, they're fast as hell, but it's not as refined. They're not talking about the fundamentals. They're talking about what to do.

Well, yeah, and I think it's just a different methodology, For sure, there was things that I found didn't maybe help me absorb the information as well as maybe I could have if it was slightly different. But then in those scenarios where I was able to get on the back with Troy and experience what that was like and feel it happening in real time, mean, that was a huge learning moment for me.

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:34:35.158)
and that I hadn't been able to get elsewhere up until that point. you know, I think this is where it's really important to be open-minded to the different opportunities to learn. Do you take those or not? Because there was certainly stuff that I definitely disagreed with. And I was like, well, thanks. I'm glad that you use that as a reference point, but that's not teaching me how to find my own reference point.

Yeah, right.

in this particular moment. Thank you for your reference point, but I disagree with that.

So interesting. I mean, like I mentioned earlier, I spent a couple of days with Tony Elias and it was very similar. I didn't ride on the back. I followed him right at Laguna Seca for two days. Holy shit, dude. I was melting my front tire. It's the fastest I've ever ridden still to this day. It was so fast and it was so fun. everything, everything was perfect. It was was it was like I had I had it.

moment it was like holy shit it was cool but then then we got down to the meat and potatoes and he is the guy that got me started on the rear brakes because he's a rear breaker not a lot of them around from gp actually there's a lot more now but i called him up after that he gave me his number so i called him up and was asking him about that and he explained it all he's he's 50 50

Speaker 2 (02:36:04.386)
He's 50-50 on the brakes and he applies them at the same time and he explained all of why and all this other stuff and fine and dandy. then Kenzay, of all people, rode my bike and now I have telemetry on my bike. So I got to watch his laps with telemetry. And so I basically saw on his deceleration

His shift down was like Troy's. Immediate. Like, immediate. Like, here's the throttle off. Bam. Bam. There's no waiting. You almost couldn't even see the throttle chop. was almost like he shifted before he let off the gas. And I asked Kenze about that, and he had a reasonable response, but it was basically the same thing. You know, it was...

kind of the same thing. I want to get the bike settled down. What's going on with those guys is they don't give a shit about the engine, really. I mean, for us, we have bikes that we don't want to. But then I started asking Kenzie about his, he's a rear breaker. So I got to drill into that a little bit more. And he basically said that he hits the rear before he hits the front.

so that the bike sits down and doesn't fishtail as much. And it's kind of exactly what you said. He's just doing it a little, well, kind of the same way. But he's adding the rear brake, which maybe Troy wasn't until he wanted to slide sideways. interesting. And then I started to ask him, well, then why can't you just apply the rear brake? If the rear brake is so small compared to the front, then why can't you just apply the rear brake sooner before the front? Right. Like, what's the harm in that?

And he was kind of out of it at that point. He wasn't feeling well too, so I bad digging into his head. But that's something that I want to study. And maybe you can give me some data, because you ride more than me. But see if you can apply the rear brake at the same time as the front brake. he's telling me that the bike doesn't dive as much if you do that.

Speaker 1 (02:38:19.032)
Well, okay, so here's my experience. The one experience I do have with actually legitimately using the rear brake in those scenarios. So I also was able to do the Colin Edwards Texas tornado bootcamp. And so when I did that in Texas, typically he only does the flat track. We were on the TTR 110s, think, out at his ranch, flat tracking.

But the year that I went, they were experimenting with taking the flat track riders, whoever wanted to, and going to a go-kart track and road racing on those same TTRs. But here's the catch, knobby fronts, knobby fronts, slick rears. So try riding around a road race go-kart track on a TTR 110 with knobby front, okay?

Speaker 2 (02:39:13.866)
I can't even.

I'm going to teach you a whole lot about front tire feel, et cetera, et cetera, especially when you're like me and the flag goes down and we're having a mock race and I'm out on track with Colin Edwards and I get a good start and I'm on this little TTR 110, falling ass stoked. Cause now I'm like, this is road racing. This is my zone. I'm, I'm hanging with the big boys. And I went and did a quick left, right, left. And I went.

left, tuck the front in front of all of them and was mortified, was fine, et cetera. But then I had Shay Focuk, one of the coaches there, former racer, et cetera, and Colin and another guy come up and they were like, hey, do you ever use the rear brake? And I was like, no, I don't. And they were like, OK, here's the perfect.

Hahaha

Speaker 1 (02:40:12.14)
This is the exact situation where you could have and should have, where it would have just settled a little bit and you wouldn't have lost the front in that quick transition with, especially with the knobbies, because you just don't have the same type of grip. And so I did, I started experimenting a little bit in that section with adding a little bit of rear brake and it for sure did settle the suspension down in that particular situation. Now, what I found really difficult was I was wearing

road race leathers with dirt bike boots and trying to modulate the rear brake on with dirt bike boots on a road race track was really hard. And I just couldn't get a good feel for the rear brake. So I'm interested in, in, in the concept, but just have never.

Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (02:41:03.5)
really had it come up and don't have that same kind of experience level to sort of smashing the rear brake in places and understanding exactly how it.

Yeah. Well, I've been using my rear brake since the Ilias days, and that was many, many years ago now, maybe maybe four or five years ago. And I had thumb brake because I had the same thing even with the regular, you know, road race boots. I can't I can't feel the rear very well at all. It's so much smaller than the front. You can feel it, but it's not a lot. It's not a lot. So I had thumb brake put on.

And since then, I was just following the Tony Ilias School of Braking. And I like it. I like it a lot. It's basically just like both brakes. And you can modulate them however you want. That's the fun part of trying to figure out how much. And you can also hit a little bit of rear brake if you want to pull it in. But that's about it. Like, I didn't make a big, huge, complicated thing out of it. But then I saw the Kenzie video and.

He's got a whole different way of looking at it, which I haven't tried. And I'm not going to probably have time to try it, you know, because when I go to the racetrack now, I'm going to have to follow a plan of like getting used to riding and blah, blah, blah. So my whole plan when I go to the track now is not going to be playing with my brakes. And so I somebody like you to go, go, you know, play with it and tell me because I want to know.

And I think that's the point is that, you know, like in this whole conversation is we're saying, yeah, let like someone's someone is is having success with it and there's benefits in certain scenarios. So let's go try it and see how it works for me. And for some people, they might really gravitate to it and go, yeah, you know, this rear brake thing really makes sense for me. And I feel like it's doing well.

Speaker 1 (02:42:55.33)
And so then they may integrate it into their writing. Someone like me goes, okay, you know, I've been writing this way for so long. I see the benefits in certain areas, but you know, it's not really something that I feel I need to integrate as much as maybe others. So I'm not going to great. At least you gave it the opportunity and, and engine in, into learning about why it's useful. think the, the, the worry part or the thing that I ended up having to solve his

Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (02:43:24.532)
is students or riders or people who have just taken that to heart without the understanding, without the trial and error, without really truly getting why they're trying to put a in the first place. then the symptom is that they just safety rear brake in all the corners because they haven't set their entry speed correctly otherwise with other braking methods. And it becomes a crutch and a very bad habit.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:43:54.39)
I'm like, dude, quit slamming on the rear brake in the middle corner because you screwed up the entry speed. Let's ditch that so that you don't have to rely on that and solve the problem in a different way. Right. So like by all means, if, if rear brake is useful for you, great. But if you end up using it as a crutch, just like trail breaking, you know, and you become, you know, this, this person that charges every corner. Thank you. I to trail break in every corner. Then it's not working for you. So.

Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (02:44:24.162)
There just should be this understanding that techniques are applicable where they're applicable. To go and make these rules to try to make it applicable where it's not.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:44:34.732)
Yeah, I totally agree with that 100%. It's so interesting, man. It's so interesting. But again, that's why people need good coaches, because you can observe that. And I also think it was really, really valuable that the school

does not have people use the rear brake, right? Because the philosophy is that it's very small and if you load up the front, there's no weight on the back and it's just not doing a whole lot. And they're not training racers. We're talking about going super fast here and very minute things. And so we should just make that clear if this ends up getting published as a track day rider or whatever.

There's nothing wrong with just using the front brake. It's got all the power, you know, and you're not going to gain a whole bunch from the rear brake. It's only in certain circumstances like Misty just said. And in those circumstances, it's a small percentage of the braking total. And when Tony says 50-50, he means 50-50.

Basically pressure wise but the rear brake is like one of these and the front brake is like six of these one two three four five six and the rear is one

And you've also got like integrated brakes now. So on the S 1000s there, you know, when you're getting on the front brake, it's also applying some rear anyway. don't know all the specs and et cetera, but I do know that they are integrated and it does come on to some, some, you know, effect. And so, you know, it becomes less necessary, I think, to, you know, try to modulate that and where it becomes more applicable is when you do have.

Speaker 2 (02:46:01.356)
no shit. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:46:21.346)
you know, you're chasing, you know, seconds and speed and, and fine tuning your riding and our racing, et cetera, where that becomes, you know, a little bit more of a, of a skill and a technique that can take you to that next level, but is maybe less applicable for Joe Schmo, know, track day rider or safety rider on the street. It's just, you know, the rear brake is, is vague feeling for a lot of people. It's really easy to lock it up. And so the mistakes we see, you know, are typically

when people just use too much rear brake and they lock it up and fishtail or expect it to stop more than it's going to, or don't use enough front brake to hop in time for what they're trying to avoid because they think that the rear is gonna do the job. So it just really comes down, I think as well to education and practice and understanding why people use the rear brake in the first place. This is a big mistake. People say like, well the racer's hanging off.

and dragging his knee, so I should do that too. I've just said, like, why do you hang off? And they have no idea, zero, none. Like, I just thought it looked cool.

Yeah, and all of us old guys, we don't hang shit. No, we don't. like I got hours and hours and hundreds of hours behind Tooey and he, know, and, and, and, yeah, we're not hanging off shit, man. Like we're just not because I mean, I guess maybe, I don't know. I don't want to get into it, but it's, yeah, I don't.

and Johnny, they don't.

Speaker 1 (02:47:55.394)
Another two hours. I know we were.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. It's fun though, man. It's fun to talk about it all. I love this sport so much and I'm trying to find a way to stay in it without, you know, a big like I don't want to be like I'm 60 now, so I don't want to have an off and, you know, be a pile of broken bones for me and my wife to deal with. You know, I got a lot of other cool things in my life going on. And if I can just if I can figure out a way to dibble dabble.

and have some fun for a week or so, you know, at the ridge, then I'm going to do that. And I'm going to try that this year. I'm going to try and get my just my neck was so painful down there. my God. So painful. But if I can get that figured out and my back, I got that squared away. I'll continue to double that. Well, if not, man, it's going to be this. And that's what it's going to be. And I'm fine with it now. I'm fine with it. Such a fun.

Such a fun time. I can't complain. Anyway, what else you got? Are we good?

Yeah, I think we're good. I think my family is walking up and down the stairs going, you're still talking.

Speaker 2 (02:49:04.751)
We're setting a record here. Hey, this is all good information. This is good information.

think so too, you can just splice it and use it later.

Angus can sell it as a bonus. Like here's a bonus. all right, girl. Well, have a great weekend. I'm sorry about the political situation to not name names or anything. And.

yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:49:28.67)
yeah. And interesting. Yeah, there's other years that I would have preferred to have my visa than right now. I wish the timing was a little different. I'm like, I could avoid going there right now, but I have the visa, so I got to get there.

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:49:47.116)
Yeah, yeah. Well, it'll be good to see you in July. I'm sure you're going to go to the ridge.

I'm doing Utah, I'm doing The Ridge. I get to go back to Mid-Ohio this year, which I'm so stoked. It's literally one of my favorite tracks in the whole entire world. I'm excited about that. I'm off to India in February 10th. I've got to ride Australia.

No kidding.

Speaker 2 (02:50:07.246)
Dang. Is the India thing, is that a private deal?

nope, is, it's once a year they do the schools there.

no kidding. Once a year? What do mean? Yeah, you want me to turn it off?

Are you still recording?

Yeah. Turn it off.

Speaker 2 (02:50:26.018)
Hang on, let's go with that. I know we would. We know each other that well, we, you know, anyway, yeah, we've definitely met several times. I just think it's cool. Well done. I want to ask you one more thing and then we can sign off of this marathon.

Yeah, I know Angus is going to kill us.

Man, he doesn't need to edit this. know, George Carlin, George, what's there to edit? know, piss, cocksucker, motherfucker and tits. We didn't say any of that. So I want to know what your breaking philosophy is. Do you have a breaking philosophy? Are you a rear breaker? Okay.

I did it.

Speaker 1 (02:51:05.902)
I'm not a rear breaker. I'm not a rear breaker only if I end up off track. I am open to the rear braking philosophy. I have used it in a one or two scenario and this comes from like different training. I think it has an application sometimes. Do I use it necessarily? No, typically.

OK, well, let's.

Speaker 2 (02:51:27.98)
Okay, fair enough. but please, I mean, this is why we want to chat, right? Please explain your philosophy of using the front brake. You know what I mean by that? Like if you had to explain to someone, do you have different ways of looking at it or?

Is there anything you're afraid of when you use the front brake only or why does it matter? Why aren't you using a rear brake? Like let's just try to parse why you're a front breaker.

Yeah, I mean, really interesting question. Here's, here's, here's, here's, here's how I'm going to answer that. So when I first started riding and racing, was originally on an SV six 50, um, 600 older models, et cetera. And it was very much the style back then to like, you know, hold it wide open until breaking marker one late break ash on the break. Like I was in a 600, the rear would come up.

You're barely hanging on, smash it in, yep, off you go. It was sort of this late breaking, smash on the front brake, break till you see God, sort of off you go mentality. And that was just always how I braked. We never used the rear brake in those scenarios and it never really sort of cropped up. And then I would say the braking changed.

into spreading that out a little bit. understanding that, you know, by waiting to the last minute and using so much front brake and putting so much strain on that front tire just stressed everything and made it really, you know, it was a little not smooth. Let's just say that. And so then came in sort of this style of braking of like, how do you trail the brakes a little longer?

Speaker 1 (02:53:25.39)
And there almost became these two ways of braking. was like either you did all your braking straight up and down, did it, get it done, turn the bike back on the gas, or you kind of were this philosophy that you had to trail the brakes in every corner all the time because trailing the brakes is the only way to properly brake into a corner. And, you know, I see it now as, you know, a...

spreading the late braking out, smoothing out that whole process, and then also understanding that just like a lot of the other tools that one has in their motorcycle riding skill set, trail braking is one of those. And it's absolutely useful for the corners that it's most useful in. Trail braking would be just as simple as possible as the process of coming out of the brakes as you're adding lean angle.

What is it?

Speaker 1 (02:54:19.896)
You know, have the one philosophy of all the braking straight up and down. trailing could actually be the coming out of the brakes, really, whether you're straight up and down, if you really wanted to bring it down to the semantics or not, how you're coming out of them. But typically it's that adding lean angle and releasing the brakes at the same time. So the more the lean angle comes in, the more the brakes have to come off. You don't want to be having too much front brake with too much lean angle, or you risk losing traction.

Is there a place where you want to definitely be fully off?

well, absolutely. Now, is that a defined absolute in every single corner by saying like you have to, you know, trail brake past the apex in every corner? No, I don't think it's as black as white and white as that. So I prefer to say you trail the brakes until the point where you have the speed set to the speed that you want. And so whether that is

You know, you've trailed the brakes to slightly before the apex, at the apex, slightly after. It just depends on what that corner is and how it's shaped and how long you need to trail the brakes into that corner.

You don't need to trail break. Absolutely. If you don't need to, you don't need to. Are there some where you have to trail much further past the apex to get slowed down and set and pointed in the direction you want to go? Absolutely. So do I think it's necessary in every single corner? No. Do I think there's a set amount every time? Absolutely not. It's to the point where you have your speed set to what is needed for that particular corner.

Speaker 1 (02:55:59.886)
with the ultimate goal still to get back on the gas as soon as possible for again that given corner. So if it's a corner where you're waiting until past the apex to get back on the gas, fine. But if it's a corner where you can get the bike turned and you're on a knee and now you can get on much sooner, damn right, now I'm back on the gas. So, you know, I think it's a tool, it's a skill.

I think it's a challenging and advanced skill to be used correctly. And I think it's a really valuable skill for those that understand and can apply it based on the corners demands. Meaning it gets really difficult to trail really deep into a very tight technical corner because there's a fine line between too much and

Yeah, the margin the margin is is very, small. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, what was I just going to say? OK, so we're going to just definitely say that that there's caveats to everything. So if anybody in motorcycle riding, back riding thinks that there's a hard and fast, never changing rule, there's not very many of those. Like, I can't even think of one off the top of my head.

Like if you want to go forward, you need to roll on the gas. There's no caveat to that. That's true all the time. But most things, if you want to slow down, you don't have to use the front brake. Right. If you want to slow down, you could still have the gas on. So, I mean, there's caveats to everything is what I'm throwing out. And that was a really, really well done explanation of why in trail breaking. No, it just.

It matters and it could be different in every circumstance, but yet we still have most corners we're trail breaking in most, at least for me. But hey, man, there's tracks we all go to that we hardly break. Like my home track, the Ridge Turn 13 is brutal on the brakes and I'm really not breaking much in any other corners. A little drag, tinge, drag, like at the end of the straightaway, right? Because it's so you can

Speaker 2 (02:58:23.202)
bleed off so much speed with that big corner. It's such an interesting topic. you're primarily a front breaker. And do you ever go back to the break after you've released it?

Probably, I'm trying to think. mean...

Remember, we're agreeing there's caveats.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, so I'm sure there's scenarios. I would say typically when you get to the point where you are releasing the brake in a corner, then you ideally don't want to have to go back to the brakes. For most scenarios, I'm sure there are situations where, you know, you've made a mistake or you have to adjust or something's cropped up. And for sure, you've I've had to.

add brake mid-corner and make adjustments. But again, that's where those skill sets come into play, okay? So now you're mid-corner, you're at lean, a rider's suddenly done something in front of you in the middle of the race, and now you have to grab a bit of brake to not hit that person. Well, what else do you need to do? Okay, well, you don't wanna just full lean smash on the front brake or you're going down as well. So how do you mitigate?

Speaker 1 (02:59:36.46)
the danger and try to slow down. Well, typically if you're going to do that, you're going to try to stand the bike up again. So those two things need to happen simultaneously. once you know, and have those skillsets to then in that situation, which I've been in where I've had to strategically move around someone or make, you know, last minute maneuvers to get around someone. When you do it in that situation, you're like, good job, your skills, you just did.

Yeah.

someone because you knew what to do. But that's where reading books, taking the schools, practicing, understanding what to do in certain situations is going to make it more likely that you're going to make the right decision in those panic moments.

In the case of the nephew calling you on the phone, that might go on the list, you know? Generally speaking, try to just break one time, unless you have one of these special circumstances. And while we're at it, nephew, try to just steer once and roll on the...

To read my book. Yeah, it's all in the book. All the things you just said, mean, steer once, know, smooth braking with the skills to manage the reason you're braking is to set your entry speed correctly. Then what?

Speaker 2 (03:00:41.857)
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:00:59.938)
You know, it goes through the steering drill, goes through throttle control, it goes through the visual sequence of when to look at what, you know, some stuff on body position and being relaxed on the bike, how to position yourself. You know, it has a lot of those, those skillsets in there. And so that's what I would say to my nephews, read the, read the book and then ask me questions.

Hahaha, okay Yeah, I just put him in the car on the way to the racetrack right but but for those of you who want to learn Before you go to the racetrack get the book and read that good stuff in there ride the highline Dear once break once roll on the gas once and you will be just correct me if I'm wrong This is my opinion 85 % of the way to having a great track day those

Four things, Highline, Break Once.

I like I'm more cautious about calling something like and making absolute like the high line. I think it's important to to maybe say like, you know, figure out the goal of what a good line is. Right. Straighten out the corner. want to, you know, sort of have this utilizing of all the track. You know, you want to make sure you're you're able to roll on the gas properly, you know, and and get through the track.

with, like you said, one steering input. Okay, so if you have a crappy line, then you're gonna end up steering the bike 19 times around.

Speaker 2 (03:02:27.726)
Exactly. So if you can package those things together, then you're well on your way. This is in the James T chat too, but you're well on your way to just having a really good line around the track. Right. And if you started with the high line, remember, we're all agreeing that there's caveats. So if you need to pull off the high line, but if you started with it, we know that that's a faster potentially and straighter potentially, but if it isn't, then you deviate. But

We're going go start with these things and we're going to have a good track day. And no, I'm reiterating. I'm reiterating your book. I'm just trying to package your, I'm trying to pull the stuff out that is in your book and reiterate it. Yeah.

Rick's School of

Speaker 1 (03:03:13.858)
I know, I'm just teasing you. Yeah, absolutely. think if you go into a track day or your next ride or something with the idea that you're gonna take something that you've read or learned and you're gonna apply an aspect of that to your riding. Okay, so I was just reading Misty's book and she was talking about the importance of staying relaxed and squeezing your knees on the tank. So how can I go out in my next ride and see if that works? Well, I'm gonna notice when I'm not squeezing my knees.

I'm gonna notice when I get tense on the bars. I'm gonna notice if I squeeze my knees, can I relax? Cool, that seemed to help. How does that make me feel? Where is it cropping up? Why is it cropping up only at turn entry? Right? How does that influence my riding? And then you can build from that. But you're starting with something. I think that's the key there is like when I first started riding, I never practiced anything because I didn't.

know that you needed to do that. just rode and you know, I was lucky in that I didn't die like some of my friends did. I didn't have major awful crashes like some of my friends did. And, you know, my life led me into all these opportunities where I, you know, could improve my skills. The point is that it took me going to the school and being faced. you actually don't know what you're doing, even though

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:04:40.798)
ride at this pace and this level was a slap in the face. Was like, you have been so lucky that you didn't die yet because you don't know what you're doing. And you know, to then be put in the situation where you maybe could have had an awful crash to stop it in that moment and go, hey, that's because I learned those skills. Didn't die. Cool. Let's continue with that because that's really important.

That's really good. once again, I think we want to encourage people to, and this isn't, we're not, we're not selling the super bike school here. We're, and we are kind of selling your book. Like I want to, I want to tell people to buy your book because I mean, for those of us that read this stuff, I have a stack of books from all over the world. You probably do too. And, I know you said you kind of hated them. I hated reading all of them, but it's just a, I've read it.

I'm just saying it's a great, great book to add to the pile. If you're trying to get educated on writing now, then Misty is still here on the planet. She's not an ex racer, retired or six feet under or anything like that. You're here. are you available to coach?

Yeah, so just a quick little plug here. The book is, the series is going to be called Life in the Fast Lane. The book one is called Discovering the Art of Cornering. So that's kind of a play on, you know, Keith's words about, you know, the art of cornering was basically me finding the Superbike School, learning how to be a coach, et cetera. And then the book includes, you know, I say it's a little bit of like a memoir slash motorcycle manual.

because it does include all sorts of skills, fundamental techniques and methods to make you a better rider with some fun, you know, stories about what it's like, you know, a day in the life of a Superbike School coach, what it's like to be a female coach in the industry, reference points, braking, there's a whole section of trail braking, picking your line, all of those skills.

Speaker 1 (03:06:51.894)
And then, and then the series will also include other books down the road on, like I said, racing technique and track. There's going to be one all about being a moto mom. So what it's like to teach kids, what it's like to teach your own kids, what it's like to teach and watch your kids ride motorcycles, especially when you're someone like me who's dealt with the loss of a child that I coached in the industry, which makes it even more real.

now put my own kids in that scenario so that I think is a really special book. And then there's gonna be one on sort of dirt and you know dirt adventure and travel because I do also write for an adventure bike magazine and ride adventure bike dirt bikes travel do all the things. So there's a ton of content.

And like you said, we're not necessarily selling like the Superbike school. We're selling the concept of, you know, being a good student, how to improve, how do people learn, why do you learn, and what are the most important skills that are gonna help keep you safe, you know, on the street and make you a better overall rider that not only your life and makes it less likely that you're gonna get hurt, et cetera, but also the enjoyment of it, right? Nobody likes riding when they're exhausted and their arms are pumped and they're...

tired and they can't make seven sessions in a day because they're too gassed. There's all sorts of tips like that within that book and it can be found on, currently it's pre-sale right now, Mistyhurst.com, that's Misty with an I. You can pre-order the ebook or hardcover or softcover. And then yes, I will be coaching with the Superbike School.

in the States at a bunch of the dates. And then I am also free for potentially some private coaching and also, video calls or video analysis. Really important too is like just knowing, and you can probably attest to this is how much we can see help support, encourage, set you up with a plan to improve based even just on a video or a good phone call where we really get to find you and like dig down into what

Speaker 2 (03:09:10.718)
I can attest. Yeah. I mean, I did that for two or three years and it was some of the most fun I've ever had. I met a lot of people. I watched a lot of videos. It's time consuming because as the coach, you have to watch it and then you might have to watch it again and then we might have to watch it again. It depends on your style as a coach, how you're going to absorb the information. For me, was watching

you typewriter, right? So.

Speaker 2 (03:09:39.788)
several times to look at different things. But yeah, then you get the gold and then you get to try to figure out or put together a plan of attack and then you get to so fun. you're so fun. Yeah. But for you now, this isn't what you've done in the past. And so you're going to obviously be at the Superbike school, which is great. But are you saying that people are that you're going to be willing to like online coach essentially is what I call it.

When I started that people thought it was stupid because you couldn't possibly accomplish anything online.

Absolutely not and now I'll give you a quick little story. coached last summer. I coached a kid just by phone call because he was in Calgary and He would send me Videos we would talk about it. We would we worked on things like strategy mindset showing up with a plan and then he would send me videos of just some of his writing and we worked through things and this was hilarious because I did a couple sessions with him

And then he was out riding and I was like, kind of like he forgot to sort of let me know how it was going. And I was like, yo dude, like how did that session go? How did it make a difference? What I just got you to do? Cause he was a little bit resistant. He didn't want to, he didn't really believe me. And I said, well, did it work? And there was this big pause. didn't hear from him while I need, and then finally he wrote back. He's like, well, I just took a second off my best time. So I think it worked. Holy crap. So just by me being in a

Yeah

Speaker 1 (03:11:12.568)
totally different province watching the videos, working through him, giving him the steps. Like the kid took a second off his time in just one of the hour sessions.

awesome. It works. That's what we're talking about. Yeah. I've had those phone calls myself and it's very exciting. I remember working with the guy down in Mexico, Mexico, way down there. And he wanted a second. Same story. He wanted a second. And it was easy. That particular one was pretty easy. Like I said, I was just watched it one time and I called him back and I said, easy, you're going to get a second easy. But let me put it together for you.

So we can talk about a plan, but easy. We're going to get a second and you got it. And, you're right. Like the anticipation of anticipation of like, want to know like, how did it go?

I was so anxious like, okay, okay, how are you doing? But yeah, absolutely. And having been on the reciprocating end, like I was the one calling Keith code, like from the side of the track when I have videos to share, it was just like, Keith, I'm sucking. What do I do? And even then he was able to coach me through and pick up on the points and know what to focus on.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:12:29.346)
So yeah, I'm keen to do that. I'm working on this book. I'm working on rolling out.

Are you ready to do that? should we do you want? Are you ready to do that right now?

I mean, ish, like I'm busy going on and I need an assistant to help me like finish all the final stuff. But I'm very close. I'm happy if calls come in. Yes, I can book those things. My website is currently focused on book sales and pre-sales, but it's going to open up for the rest of that.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 (03:12:49.624)
Okay, okay

Speaker 2 (03:13:02.578)
Okay, so we're just gonna wait for that option to show up on your website and what's your website? Okay, I think you're misty with an eye misty with an eye first

MistyHirsch.com

Speaker 2 (03:13:17.582)
Yeah. Okay. Well, girl, I could talk to you for another two hours, but, uh, I can see, I can observe that you're pretty toast and my voice is almost almost gone, but I really could. I I've enjoyed talking to you. Honestly, it's,

We didn't even talk really too much about boxing and jujitsu and like all the other stuff that we could all

There's there's too much to talk about. what does that mean? That means that we need to get together more. That's what it means. Right. And so maybe we will. But hey, I am I'm honestly very interested to see you fly with this. It's going to be really exciting. I'm being totally honest about that. And everybody out there, just add the book to your inventory and read it and save it, highlight it.

I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (03:14:11.15)
whatever you need to do. It's a little bit more flowing than if you've read The Twist. It's a little more flowing than that book and has a different approach. All the same fundamentals, all the same basics are in there and Misty's stories are awesome and it's a good book. I enjoyed reading it. So man, I guess we should

And do the updated version, because I think it's better.

Bring it. Bring it. Is the whole thing updated? my gosh, really?

Yeah, I just like, so it's rearranged. It's, it's got more stuff has been changed. There's yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm happy with it. So long time.

Cool. Well, I have a book coming. We know that. But if you want to send me like an update from what I have, I'll take it. Because I'll read it again. No problem at all. I enjoy it. I did have a good time reading it.

Speaker 1 (03:14:54.434)
You do.

Speaker 1 (03:15:05.218)
I appreciate that. Yeah. And I love the real time testimonial and I appreciate the support and obviously love riding with you and great conversation.

Yeah, and so we'll say again. Oh, thanks. So we'll just look forward to seeing you in July, probably. Is when I will probably see you next. once again, people, if you read the book and you listen to this podcast, it's a gold mine. I can already say I haven't even, I haven't even hit the stop recording button.

Good questions.

Speaker 2 (03:15:40.906)
But if you read the book and you listen to this three hours podcast, right, you will be able to go to the racetrack and be a better rider. We'll talk to you. We'll talk to you soon. Love you.